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Warrior's Charge/Ridill relation: Does the job ability behave like a regular Double Attack and how does it influence the sword?

Posting here an interesting discussion I had with Kaylia of Ifrit and a few people over at ffxionline.com (and the testing sessions that ensued) about Warrior's Charge; the subject becomes relevant to the argument regards Double Attack from any source somehow interfering with multi-hit weapons (such as Ridill) proc rate, creating some sort of hinderance to their triple attack activation chances.



from KI - Warrior forum


popular belief regarding Ridill attacks proc rate (that later was proven somewhat incorrect [Talk:Ridill], at least when the weapon is in the hands of a WAR, it isn't clear yet if the sword actually respects a 33-33-33 distribution in absence of any source of Double Attack) and Brutal Earring DA+ bonus effects on it, at the time this conversation took place: (...) Normally, you have something close to 33% 1 hit, 33% 2 hits and 33% 3 hits. Because double attack can only proc on the "1 hit", it's going to work like 1.6% of the time instead of 5% (for ridill hand). It's not bad, but benefit will be nowhere near a pure 5% increase.


Searain: These are interesting informations and it sounds like a plausible theory, would you mind to explain us how you got to these conclusions though? From what I've seen it could just be the other way around, with DA having some kind of priority over Ridill multi hits, hence the "DA weakening Ridill" rumor, although confirming this would require more accurate tests and some calculations to grant mathematical certainty.

Warrior'sCharge1

Anyhow, have you ever thought of testing Ridill multi-hits proc. rate using Warrior's Charge to simulate a 100% DA chance on the next round of hits?

Unless the Double attack trait acts differently from the Job Ability (and that'd be hard to prove either way, I guess) but the only difference I see between "May double" and "Will double" is the processing rate (see the picture for references ->).

Kaylia: Well, if it's the other way around and ridill is 33%/33%/33%, it means you will attack an average of 2 hits round, in which case, double attack would simply do nothing when it proc (double attack is 2hits too). In the worst case, double would just not change anything.

DA still work the same on WS since multihit, and your first hand will benefit from it as well.

Searain: That's pretty much what I thought even though I'm not completely sure about the "33-33-33" distribution of Ridill attacks, I haven't tested it myself yet (as in I haven't gathered data on paper) but I used my Ridill for months and it seems about right, leaving aside the fact that those numbers are acknowledged as true or really close to truth on the most popular message boards about FFXI (which cannot be taken as evidence but it's an info that can't be completely ignored either).

Anyway I understand perfectly your point, currently I have #5 Zerk, #5 Aggressor (after having #5 DA and subsequently #5 DA + #5 Zerk after merits revamp since I've been an Axe/Axe Warrior for a while and actually a great fan of DA gear and merits with that set up) simply due to the fact that they ehnance my performances against HNM and during events where Warrior DD-tanking really matters more than a mere +5% DA would do and also because probably I wouldn't truely benefit of those increased chances of double attacking while off-handing a Ridill and even moreso when using Rid/Joy combo;


Kaylia: I'm going to go test later with Warrior's charge to make sure what proc first. Wish I had that skill merited, cause it's gonna be a pain >_> [/quote]

Searain: Don't. I spent the last few hours online testing it myself; the test was rather simple, just a bit annoying and time consuming due to the lame Warrior's Charge cooldown (stuck @ 10 minutes even fully merit'ed) and also because my concern was being able to do the largest possible number of tests in a row without logging out or anything.

So, long story short, instead of afk'ing at Whitegate AH while studying for my next exam I just got a Tele Vahzl, picked the first mob in sight (a Demon Pawn that pops every 7 or so minutes near the telepoint) and did my thing: first, I unequip'ped everything but Ridill and a few pieces of Hecatomb gear (I just wanted a bit of slow%+ to separate as much as possible the first 2 consecutive rounds of hits), then I engaged while not facing the mob, used Warrior's Charge, hit, turned, took a screenshot, went afk for 10 minutes and repeated everything sixtyeight times, 50 or so during the first day and the rest a couple days after.

I didn't have any buff on me ('cept Warrior's Charge, of course) or any particular kind of food, just shadows from Utsusemi at times.

What were the results? Well, I haven't seen a single Triple Attack going off while being under the effect of Warrior's Charge (which should have simulated, like mentioned above, a 100% DA chance), only 2x attacks like you can clearly notice taking a look at these screenshots. Don't mind my MSpaint please, I was extremely bored while doing this test lol.


http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/1627/warriorschargelol1altgp2.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/3880/warriorschargelol2jv2.jpg

http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/440/warriorschargelol3dt0.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/543/warriorschargelol4am9.jpg


So, even though we don't know for sure if DA trait and Warrior's Charge work the same way (although it seems a more than likely conclusion) therefore there's still room for the skeptics, this test should give some consistency to the theory that stated that DA overwrites Ridill multi-attacks and to a certain extent it confirms that DA gear/merits/trait don't ehnance/back up in any way Ridill multi hit proc rate. Ridill just tends to attack twice more (and Triple attack less) the stronger your Double attack ehnancements are.


Kaylia: Lame. I just wasted 1h30 doing the same thing and was coming here to post the result so far ><. Tried it 7 times and only 2 hits every times, so yeah, can pretty much say DA proc before ridill or any multihit. I was wrong in my previous post, sorry.

Kaylia: There is a way to prove it, but that would involve parsing how many hits you get on ridill for a long long time >_> If 1 hits procs less often than 3 hits, it mean DA is stacked. I might do it later for the sake of it, but I'm pretty sure it will act like warrior's charge.



from ffxionline.com


Amele: warriors and assassin being unique cases (in that the ability presumably sets a flag that says: next attack = double attack) on what timer, again? general procs are checked -after- the weapon swings, period.


Searain:


WCharge1 Wcharge16


Except it seems that Warrior's Charge acts exactly like a regular double attack. It stacks with Jailer weapons the same way DA does so I really don't see any valid reason to think otherwise, unless you can put some relevant proofs on the table to back up your statement.

SearainGaruda 07:18, 28 July 2007 (CDT)


Ok, this topic is pretty amusing. There are two possibilities (1) Basically, if Ridill's multiple hits can't activate on a Double Attack, then you'll see more 2-hit attacks than one or three hit attacks. Assuming it was originally a 33/33/33 distribution, this is fine and doesn't decrease your damage, but actually makes you more consistant. (2) If Double Attack only shortens Ridill's multiple hit potential when it occurs on the first hit (as might be forced by Warrior's Charge) then you could expect to see four-hit attack rounds from Ridill some of the time normally. The lack of four hit attack rounds indicates pretty well that it's the first possibility rather than the second. I mean, c'mon. A Warrior with Brutal Earring has a 15% DA rate. That would mean almost 4% of your rounds would be quadruple attacks from Ridill. Has anyone seen a quadruple attack from Ridill? -Byrthnoth 19:59, 29 August 2007 (CDT)



Byrthnoth: (concerning Double attack effects on Ridill proc rate NdSearain) Assuming it was originally a 33/33/33 distribution, this is fine and doesn't decrease your damage


yep, it wouldn't increase it either though.

Let me ask this politely for once: how is this even remotely relevant to the discussion that was posted above?

At this point we can pretty safely assume that Ridill proc rate doesn't exactly appear to be 33/33/33 to begin with (we're still lacking a decent testing session on a "neutral" job though)[Talk: Ridill], Warrior's Charge always overwrites Ridill triple attacks and so does DA from any source (so even in the best possible scenario DA wouldn't make your Ridill performances more "consistant", it wouldn't do anything at all for it, hence Brutal Earring being wasteful to some extent for a RidillWAR "TP" gearset) and no one cited in the previous paragraphs (myself included) has ever stated on these pages or elsewhere that DA stacks with Ridill multi hits (as it does, for example, with Virtue Weapons - see screenshots above that anyway were posted with the only purpose of proving that Warrior's Charge works with them just like a normal DA trait or gear induced) producing "4 attacks" rounds of swings.

Now, I'm aware of the fact that my grasp of english is never going to score an award however I don't quite recognize how you could've succeeded in confuting anything stated in the KI thread quoted above with such a post.

Amusing uh.

--SearainGaruda 14:05, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

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