Talk:Ridill

Here's some data regarding Ridill proc rate over the course of 1020 rounds of attacks:

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36% single attacks, 44% double attacks, 20% triple attacks.

The test was conducted by Searain on Garuda server as War/Nin (hence the +10% DA from the job trait influenced the double, single and triple attacks distribution somehow) while single wielding Ridill; the test subject wasn't benefitting of the effects of any Double/Triple Attack enhancing item/food/buff/merit upgrade (such as Brutal Earring, Warrior's Cuisses, Fighter's Roll and so forth). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).

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For this to have any meaning, we'd have to do some serious math, or do this with a job that doesn't have double attack. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 13:31, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

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Its purpose is showing what kind of proc rate Ridill displays when used by a Warrior, easily considered the best Ridill-wielding class of the game, nothing more, nothing less and surely nothing that would require any kind of mathematical analysis to be understood.

Besides, this test alone debunks the "33-33-33" hits distribution theory (at least for Warrior users) that kept being mentioned (but never concretely back-up'ped with some sort of data) on the most popular message boards for the past few years and basically always taken for granted since it somehow matched the impression Ridill gives when eyeballing its proc rate on multi hits, which is enough of a meaning to justify a publication on the wiki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).

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I'm in the process of repeating the same kind of test on Thief (natural Triple attacker) and DRK/NIN (neutral as in it doesn't have any "native" DA or TA job trait) so we'll have some more data available to start making a comparison and eventually try figuring out the interactions between double/triple attack bonus from job traits and the multi-hit properties of the weapon (what checks first, which one prevails, etc.) and perhaps, as a consequence, the discovery of the real proc rate will ensue. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).

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It would seem to me that Double Attack only procs on the single hits (making them double), otherwise we'd see more 3's and some 4's from WAR. We can take that same assumption and apply it relatively reliably to Triple Attack. Putting this small sample through some mathematics would reveal a 40/40/20 between singles, doubles, and triples respectively if we count assumed double attacks as "singles that proc DA". The math behind that being: "10% DA" only can proc on singles, meaning the "36% of total" reported singles would represent only "90% of single hits", as the other 10% of singles would be represented as part of the "44% of total" reported doubles. If 36 is 90%, then 4 is 10%, meaning "4% of total" reported doubles are actually "singles that proc DA". That makes the distribution for this sample for warriors as 40/40/20. For a more conclusive test as to just the proc rate of Ridill, it would need to be tested with, as you suggest, a neutral job such as DRK, BST, RNG or SAM (without WAR sub, though I'm not sure if there's any difference with Zanshin, so maybe not SAM) and preferably with a sample size of at least 5,000. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 21:02, 23 June 2007 (CDT)

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Interesting however I believe that Double Attack from gear/merits/buffs/food doesn't stack with multi-hit'ting weapons such as Joyeuse and Ridill otherwise a Warriorninja using the Ridill/Joyeuse combo would be able to perform 7-hits attack rounds which to my knowledge is practically impossible; yes, it'd be allowed by the gameplay since the limit seems to be 8 hits per round, it just never happens with the aforementioned weapon combo (single wielded Joyeuse never triple attacks while Ridill never hits four times in the same round) whose cap, afaik (and I've been using this weapon combo religiously for over a year now, I would have noticed something by now) is actually 5 hits/round regardless the quantity of Double and Triple attack that you've artificially inoculated in your character.

I'll post something else once our tests are done (unfortunately neither Thief nor Dark Knight are in their 70's so I have to rely on a few friends for the next tests which slowed down things a tad), thanks for the interesting contribution tho, having to deal with an intelligent interlocutor is definately useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SearainGaruda (talk • contribs).

Off subject, but, instead of using {{unsigned}}, which is what other users place on unedited talk edits, you can sign your posts with 4 tildes (--~~~~). --User:Charitwo/Sig 09:44, 24 June 2007 (CDT)

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This is a good set of data. I only did the basic stuff to analyze it and didn't go deep. From what I can tell, and don't quote it on this, it's almost perfectly random. Here's what I did, if someone can spot any mistake let me know. This is the x-correlation and it looks like a Dirac delta function (random):

- Eagle 18:34, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

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Could you label the x and y axis? --VZX 05:36, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

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I've just repeated the test trying to recreate the same conditions observed during the previous one (same procedure and camp, identical mob's tipology and total number of rounds of swings, etc.) this time adding artificially a good deal of Double Attack chances which were increased by switching in a few items such as Brutal Earring, Warrior's Cuisses and Fighter's Calligae that supposedly bumped up my DA rate from 10% (Warrior innate bonus acquired via job trait) to somewhere between 17 and 20% (Brutal boost was confirmed being +5%, AFv1 boots bonus has always been considered circa 1-3%, while the effects of the "Double Attack +1" on AFv2 legs are still undiscovered) and the results, after 1021 rounds of hits while single wielding Ridill as War/Nin, were the following:

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35% single attacks, 51% double attacks, 14% triple attacks.

The numbers seem eloquent (I've added about 7-10% DA, the number of SA remained unchanged, DA were pushed 7-8% up while the triple attacks went down by 60ish units) and pretty much in line with the "DA nerf'ing Ridill" postulated theory (and also seem matching my previous observations regarding Ridill multi-attacks proc rate behaviour in presence of a "forced" DA, generated via Warrior's Charge [Talk:Warrior's Charge] - DA always overwrites Ridill natural triple attacks, evidently turning them into doubles) however I feel kinda reluctant to draw conclusions at such an early stage of this series of experiments, I'll hold on this until some more data coming from further testing will be posted either here or on BlueGartr forum.

I repeat, if someone was willing to waste some time gathering data as DRK/BST/RNG or THF (subbing anything but Warrior or Samurai) or even testing Mercurial Kris, Soboro Sukehiro or Bahamut Zaghnal, since I suspect that the various families of multi-attack'ing weapons (2x, Virtue, 2-3, etc.) follow different patterns shared among each category, it'd be incredibly helpful and would give us an opportunity to figure out in a somewhat conclusive way firstly the sword natural multi-hit distribution and in second instance if Double Attack actually decreases Ridill performances as the tests suggested.

SearainGaruda 13:57, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

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adding a link that shows the gear used during each test in case anyone was curious, I had forgotten Frt. Torque in mogsafe (replaced with PCC as you can see) and used SH+1 instead of Ebody the second time. The "DM-like" earring was Ethereal in both cases (since I was soloing and single wielding).

gear.

--SearainGaruda 09:47, 28 July 2007 (CDT)

Did you measure time at all? It seems both sets of data support the idea that double attacks from job trait are attacks that would have otherwise been triple attacks with Ridill. But I'm not sure if that necessarily means (it may) that it will result in less attacks over time. It would be simple to decide once and for all though. Do the same test again twice, but measure the total amount of time required to produce those 1020 hits. The easiest way to do this would probably be on walls in Lebros Caverns, just get two people to enter with you and tell them not to do anything to the wall, just let you keep attacking it, determine the amount of time it takes to get to 1020 hits with no +Double Attack gear, then do the same thing with lots of +Double Attack gear stacked. If your hypothesis is correct, it will take considerably less time to reach the 1020th with no Double Attack gear. --^{∂ινιζσr}_τhεσry^{(Need help? Ask me!)} 14:42, 14 August 2007 (CDT)