Talk:Renkei

Someone revert the edit Valyana made, it now makes the page useless to find out a skillchain if you have to keep going back and forth between pages. --Zero 18:55, 20 Jan 2006 (PST)

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Do you have another suggestion for how to split up the page? None of my browsers were capable of editing the page as it was. If someone else is able to put back the elemental attributes section, I have no objection, but please don't revert my other changes. --Valyana 23:37, 20 Jan 2006 (PST)

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Oh hell I don't mind the changes you made to the top, but I feel having the elemental attributes on the same page is really handy (Though, the order needs to be fixed). I will see what I can do about putting the elemental charts back onto the same page. --Zero 02:31, 21 Jan 2006 (PST)

Request to Move to "Skillchains"

It's really just stupid to use the Japanese name for the sake of using the Japanese name. Most English-speaking people, like the ones that would come to this site, refer to the topic as a Skillchain.--Priran 20:53, 19 June 2006 (PDT)

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There is no need, and its not stupid, its history. Anyone wishing to find out about skillchains needs only type "skillchain" into the search, and is immediately redirected to Renkei, the same goes for links to "Skillchain". On a side note, you may want to put any messages you have in Talk pages on the bottom, lest people not be able to easily see them. I had to go into the page history to see what changes you made so I could see what you wrote. Hope that helps. --Chrisjander 07:12, 20 June 2006 (PDT)

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I'd like to know what "history" there is behind the name Renkei. The only reason I could see for NA calling it by this is because it's the name the JP were using for this (And "Genkai") when the NA version went live.

The manual calls it a Skillchain. Articles in the Tribune call them skillchains. Renkei is not in autotranslate. There is no need to call the topic a renkei other than cool-by-proxy JP fanboyism.--Priran 16:55, 20 June 2006 (PDT)

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Hmm, I'm actually in favor of this move as well, for the same reasons as Priran is. Instead of having Skillchain redirect to Renkei, we can have Renkei redirect to Skillchain. Most users' experience will not change in any way; only nitpicky people and editors will notice. --Ichthyos 17:28, 10 August 2006 (EDT)

Chart Changes

Yeah, they look better, but I don't really like the idea of having two collums. Also, would you mind including colors? It would help me recognize which elements are what a lot quicker. --Zero 15:24, 17 Feb 2006 (PST)

Done

Well I kep the 2 columns, but that can be undone if needed. I really don't use skill chains at all as a BST, so I don't know if the rest of the article can be shortened anywhere, but at least this gets the information that was moved back in a shortened version. Hope it can be edited as is. --Gahoo 11:37, 22 February 2006 --Valyana 12:30, 1 March 2006 (PST)(PST)

Wpn Skill charts

Looks excellent, except for a few weapons that have skills with long names. Those charts that have them aren't aligned properly on all resolutions, one of the easiest to see is the chart for Hand-to-hand. Shoulder Tackle, One Inch Punch, and Spinning Attack are all too long to keep to one line. While this would be fine normally, the rest of the chart doesn't word wrap with it, so the alignments are all off. When I have the time after work, Ima play with the chart to see if I can't make it look the same, but set the rows into alignment for all screens. If someone wants to try this before I do, please go ahead.

--Chrisjander 12:01, 22 February 2006 (PST)

I've now got a test chart on my talk page that has the basic two column format, and all the info, but now its rows are aligned. I used Greatsword and Hand-to-Hand as examples because they were two of the weapons with the longest names. Take a look and tell me what you think. User talk:Chrisjander

--Chrisjander 13:51, 22 February 2006 (PST)

Looks fine to me. Thanks. --Gahoo 14:10, 22 February 2006 (PST)

The new tables look good, but I notice that the contents differ significantly from Aden's chart, which I'm inclined to trust more. For instance, I know that Full Swing opens Fusion and closes Liquefaction, but the tables here don't show it as having a Fire element at all. --Valyana 12:30, 1 March 2006 (PST)

Heh, I actually have no idea how the tables are supposed to work, I just tried to make it look nicer. I almost always use Aden's chart, since its much easier to read. Since you really only need to know what the weapons you use open and close, and with what, this table would only be for people that don't like Aden's chart, or want to remember the reasons why the weapon skills work. And I'm not entirely sure, but I thought to open a Fire renkai, you didn't need the element in question, but then again, I've already said I dont' know how these charts are supposed to work. --Chrisjander 12:44, 1 March 2006 (PST)

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Well as a BST i don't SC either. I was just trying to put back in the charts since Zero complained aboved about their being moved. --Gahoo 15:42, 1 March 2006 (PST)

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In case anyone is interested, the way I determined the elemental attributes of all the weapon skills is by looking at where they lie on Aden's chart. Example: Piercing Arrow is in the section that has a nice pretty picture of water behind it (with the 'A' attribute), as well as in the section for light (with a 'B' attribute). Things may very well be wrong at this point - I haven't looked at all this in probably about 2 years...I'm up for taking a look through it all now, but in the future (whenever I decide to go into hiding - I like to do that at times :-P ), now anyone can figure out how to classify them! :-D Just thought I'd share! --Rixie--

Another quick note: I think when I fist did this the higher level weapon skills were still being worked out...so that may be why the Full Swing part is messed up. Or I could have just been dead wrong (which is known to happen...hehe) --Rixie--

Ok, should all be updated to match the most recent chart put out by Aden (thank you very much Mr. Nak!) --Rixie--

Remove the SC tables?

I feel the Skill chain tables (the ones that list across the top and sides: Liquefaction, Detonation, Induration, etc) are just not necessary... It's much easier to find that info in the little lists below the tables. What do you guys think though? Don't wanna go deleting stuff like that without a general concensus. Thanks! --Rixie--

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I find I'm always scrolling past that part, I dont' find that info useful at all, so I have no problem removing it. --Chrisjander 10:03, 7 March 2006 (PST)

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Max Damage

Finally, regarding the [url=http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/index.php/Renkei]Renkei[url] article...the article lists the maximum damage values for the different levels of skillchains. However, I have found that when multiple Skillchains are performed in a row, the last is always stronger than the previous, even if you're performing Skillchains of the same level. I then proceeded to find the damage values for all Skillchain levels up to the 5th Skillchain. There seems to be no limit to the number of skillchains you can perform before you stop seeing an increase in damage; I suspect there may be a limit to the percentage, rather than the number of skillchains. Due to the difficulty of testing, I stopped my research, but I believe it's a non-issue, because I've never heard of any strategy where one would perform so many skillchains in a row that reaching the limit, if it exists, would be possible.

- Armando

(placed here by Mierin for further discussion)

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I don't have any personal recolections or any data collection in regards to the max damage for skillchains. It would make sense to me that the above statement could be correct. I do remember one time seeing my lught skillchain do more damage than my weapon skill had, which i thought was interesting as i thought the max was 100% of the weapons skill damage. i dont remember if it was in a series of skillchains or what though... anyways, if we want to change this info in the renkie article, i'm not opposed. --Rixie 11:26, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

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To my experience, Renkei damage is like a black magic spell with base damage = (modifier) * (last weaponskill damage), with the elemental properties of all the elements in the renkei w.r.t. bonuses and penalties. The damage resistance pattern is like black magic too: if the base damage is 1000, and the modifier is 50% (2-part level 1 chain) then the monster can take the full 500, or 250, 125, 62, etc.

The modifier is determined from a chart which I saw a long long time ago. It goes something like this: (warning, numbers not accurate)

	Weaponskills Performed
Renkei Level	2	3	4	5
Single-Element	0.5	0.6?	etc.	...
Double-Element	0.5	0.6?	etc.	...
Light/Dark	1.0	1.5	etc	...

I'm not sure how resistance rate of renkei damage is calculated; it's possible that the game takes any of the mean, peak, or trough resistance rate from among the present element, or something more complicated.

Day/weather bonuses and penalties seem to apply if the renkei contains the proper elements. That is, light has a chance of doing and extra 10% damage on firesday, windsday, lightsday, and lightningsday. It would be interesting to see if the Sea Obis (that guarantee the day/weather bonus/penalty) modify renkei damage all the time.

Aurikasura 11:38, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

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I'm still not quite used to using Wiki, so I'll refrain from editing the main article yet. Instead, I'll write all that I've found about skillchain damage here.

As you all know, Skillchain damage is a percentage of the damage of the Weapon Skill with which it was performed. Refer to the following table:

Level 1 | 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90%
Level 2 | 60% | 75% | 100%| 125%| 150%
Level 3 | 100%| 150%| 175%| 200%| 225%

As stated above, I couldn't find a limit, though if there is one, I assume the ceiling is 300%. Despite the damage consisting of more than one element for Level 2 and Level 3 Skillchains, it's dealt as a whole. Day, weather, and even Elemental Stave (though this fact doesn't have any real application) bonuses apply. It's also subject to any forms of straight magic damage reduction, including Shell. Of course, it's also subject to partial resists. It is not affected in any way by Magic Attack Bonus, Magic Defense Bonus, or the Weapon Skill performer's stats.

As for specific elemental resistances, Skillchains seem to follow the "path of least resistance." To my understanding, Elementals always reduce damage taken from their own element, or the element it beats, by 95% or so (this is just the number I've read, but they definetely take very insignificant damage even if the caster is far higher in level.) Regardless, I've performed Level 2 Skillchains which include one of the two elements the Elemental is strong to several times, yet I always dealt the whole Skillchain. I've done Fragmentation on "Too weak to be worthwhile" Thunder Elementals, and Fusion on Light Elementals. Therefore, when it comes to straight damage reduction, the game always picks the element whose damage would be reduced less. I assume that resist rates work in the same way.

As for Sea Obis, I asked around in the Allakhazam forums, and was told that they do not guarantee the day and weather bonuses. No proof was shown, so I took their word for it.

Armando 17:09, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

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I fixed up my table with Armando's numbers.

	Weaponskills Performed
Renkei Level	2	3	4	5	6	7
Single-Element	0.5	0.6	0.7	0.8	0.9	1.0
Double-Element	0.6	0.75	1.0	1.25	1.5	1.75?
Light/Dark	1.0	1.5	1.75	2.0	2.25	2.5?

As for the obis not guaranteeing the day/weather bonus, while staff bonuses do, I find that quite odd, because they both operate at the same point. The fact that staff bonus does carry through indicates that the game looks to the closing character for damage-element enhancers, which seems to encompass the following types of items: staffs, weather effects (100% with obi), day effects (100% with obi), bonus damage during magic burst (Sorcerer's Gloves / Static Earring), bonus damage from day (Sorcerer's Tonban) so I'm puzzled that it would not apply. These factors are summed up and applied to the damage at a single point. Only later in the damage formula do you see damage-type enhancers (such as MAB, and strength/weakness to slashing/blunt/piercing/magic inherent in certain monsters).

Personally, I would doubt the sources at Alla, but that's just me, and seeing as I'm unable to test (no obis) it's not like I can offer evidence to the contrary.

Aurikasura 17:38, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

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Thanks, Aurikasura. That looks so much better than my cheap ASCII table.

Personally, I did find their response regarding the Sea obis questionable too. Like you said, I just don't see why they wouldn't guarantee the bonus, as long as the Skillchain closer is wearing the obi. But, unfortunately, I'm merely a Lv.52 PLD, and my LS is a social one. I don't know anyone that owns Sea obis. Hell, it was hard enough to get help for the damage table - it almost took me a whole month! Speaking of which, I did confirm that on the 6th Skillchain (7th WS), Level 1 Skillchains do 100% damage. However, I didn't bother checking Level 2 and Level 3, so I ommited that column. It's not hard to extrapolate their values, the pattern is pretty clear, but, oh well. Like I said, people are already hessitant to put together three-man skillchains, I doubt anyone would use the right side of the table much.

Armando 18:20, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

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Edited the above table to include 7-WS renkeis...though personally I think I've only seen 4 a handful of times and 5 ...once maybe? :P Aurikasura 18:36, 8 May 2006 (PDT)

Relic Weapon Skill Properties

Someone in my dynamis LS has Namas Arrow in Dynamis. We've found that Namas Arrow > Asuran Fists / Blade: Ku makes Darkness. That would make Namas Arrow's secondary property to be Distortion. I'm not sure if there's a general trend among all relic WS such that you could conclude that would be the only other property of it (ie. No need to continue testing other combinations and WS orders).

If anyone has more information about other relic WS, it would be nice to fill in the missing properties for completeness. --Nivlakian 09:38, 2 June 2006 (PDT)

I've recently added some skillchain properties on Relic WSes. Information is matched up to that of Studio Gobli.
It goes something like < can continue lv 3 element> / <has level 2 element>--VZX 09:45, 6 July 2006 (PDT)

Nicer page formatting for editing

I was thinking if we can re-arrange the WS table so that we can seperately modify the SC properties for each weapon (i.e: editing axe only WS, Great Sword only WS, Blue Magic only)
Because editing the whole section can be troublesome if you have very long list of code in 1 section