/BRD
I'm not a COR, but I've noticed quite a number of COR's on my server subbing BRD even at higher levels. Perhaps the viability of this should be mentioned/discussed. Pahya
Heh, actually, I myself have been playing with Bard some, even. Just added the Bard sub section, for your perusal. --Zaine 10:57, 2 November 2006 (EST)
Notes to Me
Add BLM MAB note, add a summary, proof -- Noname1122 16:54, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
Subjob Ranger
Here you said they were generally too busy... I like Sub RNG myself and I find even when I was SUB whm I could Skillchain and such. I mean, I only get Phantoms Roll every 1 minute. I have as much free time on my hands as a SMN in the meantime. I can backup heal which honestly suchs considering I dont have great mind or I can sub RNG and kick ass. But I am only level 16 so I dont have too much experience in it - But I have talked to some higher level COR on my server who are seemingly going with the non-support COR aka the COR/NIN seeing as they make decent pullers I guess. I dunno. They have plenty of time to do Phantom Roll every minute for those that want what they want and still DD and do good damage. So I generally, COR's Phantom Roll's dont keep them too busy. Ask any 75 SMN, Ita not their Pet Abilty that happens every one minute that keeps them busy. --Nynaeve 20:25, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
At the lower levels I was at, I definitely agree. I could keep up, chain, and etc. As I'm hitting later levels, however -- a Roll can take about 30-40 seconds if I need to Double-Up a lot; and if I'm spinning a full four (well, 5 is full) rolls, a majority of my time cannot be spent shooting. So, certainly I can WS every so often... I just find that there's NO way I can keep up with the melee's TP rate. So, while technically I can skillchain, it would hamper the party to wait for me. And as for MND sucking (which it does), that actually ceases to matter really by end-game -- a brd/whm will Cure3 for just as good as most WHMs. That being said, I really only wanted this to be a template and starting place so far. CERTAINLY there's more to discuss, and I'm by no means an expert. I'll make a change to reflect something tommorrow at work, to make shooting sound less rare. :) -- Noname1122 22:09, 3 May 2006 (PDT)
I see where you are coming from on high levels but most people wont be 60+ right away if you know what I mean, they start out at low levels and move up. I have talked to a few of the higher Corsairs on my server and they say they rarely have to double up that much. While being a Corsair is to gamble, they tend to roll decent on the first or second try. If they have to double up a couple times due to too many ones they say it still doesnt take them that much time. I am just going off what they are saying. I guess every server/person is different. I can tell now there will be a split between COR who are full support and COR who will be support/melee ~ I know they can do both by higher levels. I was just upset you were downplaying it when I heard from some others that it isnt that hard. --Nynaeve 04:37, 4 May 2006 (PDT)
Suggestions
Personally if I was to level Corsair I would have Ranger as a subjob, but since I'm not leveling either job at the moment I'll just give some suggestions to the layout of the guide.
- At the moment the guide is setup so that you see the benefits and negetives of a COR74 or COR75 you are assuming that everyone will know when the traits, abilities, spells etc are learnt. Personally my memory isn't capable of that kind of thing. How would the guide look if traits, spells, abilities were laid out in a table with levels gained and such. That way a player could weigh the pros against the cons depending on what level they are and see at what point a particualr subjob becomes viable (Ninja for example isn't really an option until level 20).
- You mentioned BRD/WHM curing. Well BRD has the 2 ballads at their disposal (Ballad 1 level 25, Ballad 2 level 50) so a BRD/WHM does have an edge compared to COR/WHM (unless there's a COR ability I don't know about). What is a COR/WHM's mana pool in comparison to a BRD/WHM (post 51 if possible)
On a side note, when did WHM get Subtle Blow? --Perim 06:16, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
A COR/WHM has the same MP pool as a BRD/WHM (same gear, same level). They are both jobs that do not naturally have MP, so all their MP comes from their sub and gear. --Chrisjander 06:29, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
I should also point out that this makes BRD and COR just as good a support healer as a WAR/WHM similarly equipped. --Chrisjander 06:42, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
COR @ 40 get Evoker's Roll which isnt a set amount of Refresh - The amount refreshed depends on the COR's actual Roll which is a gamble no matter how you look at it. Now no one is saying they are as good as a BRD but they have some rolls that are just as good if not better than a BRD's depending on what number you can roll. COR/WHM as Chris said, has the same MP as BRD/WHM or WAR/WHM or well any job subbed WHM that doesnt have Mana naturally. So until higher levels, subbing WHM is pretty useless since you dont have a lot of MP to help cure with. But this is my opinion. I am leveling COR as COR/RNG and so are alot of other people on my server. I have seen people do COR/NIN a lot as well. But I am still sticking to COR/RNG. If I ever get high enough and want to try /WHM again I can since my WHM is already way above the sub cap. But since I am still low level, all I see is a waste of time w/ WHM subbed. Again just my opinion of what I have seen and by no means something you should take as gospel. Try out and do what you want. Its a new job therefor free reign to experiment. --Nynaeve 07:08, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
COR/WHM is just as useful as BRD/WHM I'd say. Having another extra Cure pool to fall back on during emergencies is probably just as useful as the most likely, relatively minor damage difference. Cor is viewed as a support job by many people, and is very similar to BRD in many ways, so I definently don't think /WHM is a waste. --Syeria 12:49, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
COR/WHM and BRD/WHM are different in one major respect. As BRD I would NEVER whip out my dagger (or whatever) and attack. It's just not going to happen. As COR I have plenty of time to do damage. Going COR/WHM doesn't do anything to enhance my damage, and I'm not going to be able to fill the time between rolls with curing (and if I tried I'd be OOM very fast). As BRD I can fill the time between songs with ... more and more songs, and yes, up until I got curaga, I'd be tossing out Cures, and once I got curaga I'd just sit on my MP until Curaga was needed (much better life saver than cure or cure ii IMHO). And with Mage's Ballad and time between fights I had time to rest. Most the time with COR I am also the puller so.. no time to rest between fights. Now if you knew the party setup ahead of time and it was using a paladin tank and had very little other support but did have someone else to pull, then yes I could see /whm being usefull so long as you had some +MP gear and if at all possible some hMP+ as well. But if your pulling or if the PT doesn't lack for healing (and I mean if you have a main healer and any of the following: blm,smn,rdm,or blu/whm) you should really be focusing on doing damage, not doing support. --NoOneLeft 03:35, 28 July 2007 (CDT)
Thief Sub?
What about THF sub? I think it could be a good sub. Face it, COR doesn't do much damage no matter if you sub WAR or RNG or whatever. They don't put up as high numbers as other melee. THF would give Sneak Attack at 30+ and you can SATA at 60+. I think it could prove to be a great sub, especially at 50+ when you would gain access to Flee for some of those long pulls.
Also, I have to comment on this article. It sounds very opinionated. I understand it's marked as a guide and it's meant for discussion, but leave the opinions to the talk page, and put some fact down on the article page. It seems like whoever is editing the article really wants everyone to use either WAR or RNG sub, and honestly, neither of those would be my first choice of sub for this job. --Ganiman 07:16, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
Honestly, THF sub is my second choice. Once I get closer to 30 I wanted to level THF up to test is out with SA. Its not hard to get THF up if you have help and someone owes me help. :P Either way. I totally agree with you on THF. When I first started leveling COR, I had this discussion with Chris and another with my friend Pink on whether on which job I should take up as my sub. I chose RNG first because at lower levels it provides more benefits. Its not until 15 that THF really becomes useful and with it subbed its not until 30. They both have good DEX and AGI, the having Sharpshot at 10 just outweighed the getting Steal. Most of the time its Chris and me leveling together. Not a real party setting so RNG is good for doing the Damage I want to do and gives relatively the same about of AGI/DEX as sub THF would in fact for Taru at least /RNG gives more AGI than /THF. Either way, when I get up there I will be trying THF seeing as I have already put alot of thought into the benefits of it. --Nynaeve 07:31, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
What exactly are the benefits of /RNG? I thought COR got access to Marksmanship WS already, so is it just the AGI and Sharpshot? I know some people who are using /RNG, but I doubt that I would. It seems to me to be more of an aesthetic choice than a gameplay one. --Syeria 12:51, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
Yes, As COR you already get the Marksmanship weapon skills but /RNG does add more DEX & AGI, gives Sharpshot, Alertness, Widescan, and an Accuracy Bonus. So no, its not more of an asthetic choice really - Its an effective choice. I can pull and do damage rather well and the higher you get as COR the better it is. SO you can be Support as well as a DD or Puller if you want to be. The game is designed to play each job as you want it to. Its a new job as as far as I have seen - yes there are COR/WHMs out there but mostly COR/NIN or COR/RNGs. I am still not saying that /WHM is a bad subjob. Above i was just trying to say that it is equally effective to a BRD/WHM which is effective higher up but at lower levels is kind of, well not as good.--Nynaeve 13:23, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
I've been reading, but I guess I'll answer too. Subbing RNG is more than just Sharpshot. It's also a base +10 accuracy, from Accuracy Bonus, which I actually find to be the most important part. It also allows use of the Gun Belt and Beater's Earring, arguably the two most potent items a Cor can wear in those two slots, right up until 75.
A /RNG Corsair is going to find himself massively more accurate than a non /RNG. At the low 40's still (And, Nynaeve, you were right on this), I find myself still keeping up with TP easilly and taking part in the main skillchain as /rng. My parsed damage stacks up to full-DDs quite favorably, actually - and with my Gun Belt, my skill is quite comparable to a same level RNG. So, yes, honestly. I think /rng is the most effective sub for COR. Like I've said, /WHM is fine, situationally.
As for /THF, I really don't see the benefit. I understand that Sneak Attack is good for most melee jobs, around 30, who just want to put out DD. But, a Corsair is going to put out even more DD by shooting full-time, than by using SA. Firing bullets full time is just going to do more damage than using a dagger/sword and a one minute timer'd Sneak Attack.
Ganiman: If neither /WAR or /RNG are your first picks, what is? WHM? Do you find your cures that necesarry? --Noname1122 13:42, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
Noname, your attitude toward /WHM seems a bit ignorant to me, Nynaeve at least acknowledges the use of /WHM. But really, why should anyone ever sub WHM unless they're main heal? Shouldn't the main healer take care of all curing?
The point of /WHM is to bring a job into a support role, and if you don't think your job should be support, go ahead a wait all that extra time competing with other DD jobs. Support roles are some of the most important jobs to have, and are pretty much always in high demand. They reduce downtime.
Would you rather have a party kill a mob 10 seconds faster, not fast enough to extend chains any further, and need to rest for several minutes every 6 fights, or would you prefer to fill a support role, have those slightly longer fights, but no downtime between chains. It's not going to be exactly that for every party of course, but I'd rather have an extra safety net, and consistent XP than burst XP that relies on nothing going awry.
As for /THF, SATA can be very helpful, every little bit of extra hate control you can get on the tank is useful. The amount of time it takes to land a SATA is pretty small, and the damage you can do even without a WS stuck on it is pretty much guarrenteed to exceed the damage you would have done in that time just standing around shooting. Overall DoT change from RNG to THF? I have no idea as I haven't tried either. The SATA timer is also the same as your Phantom Roll timer, so just tacking that on as you run around tossing out your roll isn't really all that difficult. --Syeria 18:28, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
Quote: "Noname, your attitude toward /WHM seems a bit ignorant to me, Nynaeve at least acknowledges the use of /WHM"
I dont see at which point I knock the use of /WHM at all. Sure, I havent discussed it on this talk page because it hasnt come up; but I'm the one who added it as as suggestion, on the main page... --Noname1122 20:29, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
No need for bickering now, this is a forum for pointing out good points, not showing people up for bad points. /WHM has its use, /RNG has its use, /NIN has its use. Play it as you feel. If you're going to add a section on a certain subjob, only put its good points, don't knock its bad ones. A good example is how I set up the Red Mage: Guide to Playing the Job section for subjob description. Take a look, you'll see nothing but positives and warnings about possible slow invite rates, no "this subjob is terrible". --Chrisjander 20:40, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
At the risk of sounding massively childish, please leave me out of the argument from now on, and edit what you'd like. I only wrote this for fun at work, anyway. There's little in the way of emotional investment, and it has officially become less fun, hehe. Edit as you like. --Noname1122 20:44, 17 May 2006 (PDT)
RNG Subjob information change
Subbing Ranger on Corsair, post60, gives the job the ability to act in a dire situation and finish off a mob extremely fast. Being able to do your Barrage, WS, Wild Card with possible TP, WS again maybe, Barrage again, two melee rounds typically inbetween if you're smart, WS again, then an Icarus Wing, and WS again... that's an extremely potent combination and basically the same thing rangers do for high damage output. With RNGsj, you've got Sharpshot coming at you with high accuracy bonus, the added Barrage TP, and more marksmanship skill.
Again, it all depends on the PT, but I just wanted to point out and make sure that people saw this and understand that a Corsair subbing RNG is basically a RNG-30%dmg with buffs.
RDM sub in conflict
COR/RDM could be used in ballista to clear Shadow images then finaly Shoot the target with a Slug Shot. I have never tried this before but it could work since some Dark knights use poisonga/ diaga (depending on there sub-job) before using there weaponskills. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Zelldor (talk • contribs).
Thief SJ section
If someone doesn't defend this right now, I'm seriously going to tear it out and rework it from the ground up. This doesn't even make sense at all. --Genosync 11:10, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
Corsair doesn't need to sub THF. For the ridiculous SATA Viper Bite at 60? God, that's seriously gimp. You could be Slug Shotting, and probably not missing, for 1.5x the damage on average. Why would you do this at all? What does it offer to a party? Nothing.--Genosync 11:12, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
Offhand, I agree that /thf sub is basically entirely useless for a Corsair. I just left it when it as added, as argument was sure to ensue if I didn't, and that's really not my thing. As far as I'm concerned (original author, whenever ago), feel more than free. You have my vote.
Though, as a note, merc kris alone will result in more TP gain than merc/joy. As will joy result in more than joy/anything-else. Any weapon which offers a large TP gain due to multi-hit will gain more TP when used alone than when combined with any weapon which delivers less TP. This is just because of the added delay of the less-TP-y weapon, whereas it could as easily be more swings with the more-TP-y weapon. Just commenting on your last edit. Dual wield is still basically not a benefit, for TP gain. Just rAcc knives. Edit away. --Zaine 12:28, 31 July 2007 (CDT)
There, I made some clean-up work to the rest of the piece, leaving /THF untouched. All you on that section. I agree it's ill-informed. --Zaine 12:57, 31 July 2007 (CDT)