The name "Hyper Notorious Monster" is incorrect. The name Hyper was given the the abbreviation HNM when the new North American players could not figure out what else the "H" Could stand for. The term HNM given to certain Notorious Monster by the Japanese community that had been playing for many years prior to the arrival of FF XI in North America. The term HNM stands for "Honorary Notorious Monster"
- All HNM grant Titles
- Not all HNM require an alliance or several Alliances of 75s
- Yeah, and I personally edited this and the page needs to be moved to Category:Honorific Notorious Monster. This has been a ridiculous blunder by the NA clients. My ingame husband is Japanese and lives in Japan, and they still laugh at this. The term HNM came out before North Americans could even log on to FFXI. The Japanese use honorofics probably more than any other modern developed nation. When they got a title from the monster they referred to it as an HNM and the term was much more casually used. Today, people want to argue that because most of the HNMs are of higher level that it should be redefined. What they don't understand is that being able to defeat a lower level HNM when you aren't level 75 can be just as honorable as 40 of your friends taking down a level 95 Wyrm. America doesn't have this sense of honor or respect for people, so they feel the need to steal the concept, and redefine it to their means.
- Some definitions for Honorific
- n. A title, phrase, or grammatical form conveying respect, used especially when addressing a social superior
- adj. Conferring or showing honor or respect; "honorific social status commonly attaches to membership in a recognized profession" n : an expression of respect; "the Japanese use many honorifics"
- n. A title or term of respect.
- adj. Also, honorifical. doing or conferring honor.
- People wonder why the Japanese say "{No thanks.} JP ONRY {please}" when you try to invite them to a party. It's stuff like this.
--Poof 15:29, 25 November 2006 (EST)
Wrong name.[]
Actually, the name refers to "High Notorious Monster", as shown in this version update description:
"In addition, a new type of high notorious monster (HNM) will be added to the beastman strongholds."
http://www.playonline.com/pcd/topics/ff11us/detail/675/detail.html
The fact that they give titles only adds to their "high" stature compared to regular notorious monsters.
TAU NMs[]
Should some of the TAU NMs be added to this category? IMO, Cerb and Hydra should without a doubt. Beastmen leaders, probably not.
List of HNMs[]
The statement of the different interpretations of HNM should probably be reorganized and placed on the main page. A bullet point system of NA Interpretation, JP Interpretation, and SE's use of "High Notorious Monster" in 2006 should be listed. If I remember correctly, the first usage in English forums of "HNM" I was able to find was in late 2002 or very early 2003. I wrote down the earliest post-date I could find for the word... somewhere.
I know a bit about nomenclature and clashing definitions for the same word since my work has kind of waded into the murky world of nomenclature definitions. It helps to, when using a term of disputed definition, list the different definitions that are in use and list what definition you (you= anyone who contributes to FFXIclopedia; not talking to anyone specifically) use, be it one of the clashing definitions, a synthesis of the two (or synthesis of various clashing definitions), or an entirely new definition, followed by a justification of why the body (FFXIclopedia) has taken that position.
I think there should be a list (beyond the category-linked list) of HNMs and the degree of acceptance they have as an HNM. Obviously Kirin & the Sky Gods and the CoP Wyrms and the Three Kings would be undisputed, but this page shouldn't just say "undisputed" HNMs. It should list ones generally undisputed, focusing on why they are considered HNMs, then list ones that are generally agreed to be HNMs, but which there isn't unanimity, and then list NMs where their status as HNMs are disputed.
Example:
HNMs accepted by a consensus of FFXI players:
Rise and repeat.
NMs generally accepted as being HNMs, but which lack unanimity:
- List them here
NMs whose status as HNMs are disputed:
- List them (probably the likes of Roc, Simurgh, Lumber Jack, etc, all the early ones)
If you look on many HNMLS websites, they list what monsters they consider HNMs in their kill tallys. I remember there were some monsters deemed HNMs that are commonly considered HNMs no longer because they are weak now that players can level up much higher. For example, the first-wave HNMs were Roc, Simurgh, Behemoth, Lumber Jack, and Serket. These monsters had to be fought under LV55 & LV60 caps and were tough (they were added in Sept 2002, except Serket, who was apparently added in Nov or Dec 2002). Now, most of these wouldn't be considered HNMs. FFXIclopedia would need to justify whether it includes these NMs as HNMs in their definition or not. My position is any monster that meets the criteria of being tough at the time they were added as a result of their stats (level, STR, etc) as a whole relative to the resources available to a player (level cap, spells, equipment, JA; basically, a player at the maximum optimum of effeciency/power/effectiveness) should be considered HNM. Not all title-granting NMs are challenging. Some are as easy as regular HNMs. Of course, all of this is murky because while NM is strictly defined, existing in the game's programming code, HNM is not defined. NM is a status designation flag of sorts. Can this monster be checked or not? It also comes with common characteristics like being rare (i.e. not a dime a dozen like regular monsters). HNM is defined by subjective experience, how challenging the NM is to the player. So, there isn't going to be consensus across the board as to what is/isn't a HNM in many cases.
Beyond those first-wave HNMs, it seems there isn't consensus on the Beastmen Kings (Overlord, Adamantking, the Manifest) nor their new ones (Medusa, Gulool Ja Ja, Gurflurlur). Cerberus & Hydra would also seem to fit the HNM definition (as would their third kin, if the Lamias' domain ever gets an HNM of its own). I remember seeing some places back in 2003-4 listing Cemetary Cherry, Voluptuous Vivian, Capricious Cassie, and several other monsters as HNMs.
--zoogelio-forgot-his-password 20:36, 27 November 2006 (EST)
Oh yeah, and all the possible meanings for H (Honorific, Hyper/Heavy/etc, High) should be listed. Effort should be made to find out where it originated (JP players or did Square mention the term HNM in an update not translated into english back in late '02) and categorize the meanings according to closeness to the origin. Obviously Hyper was an attempt by NAs to figure out what H is, but was honorific coined by the originators of the word or was it coined by some JP players who were presented with the term HNM by a small group of FFXI players who originated the word or Square? I would note High as the official meaning of the H, but I wouldn't try to whitewash over the whole history of the H because SE hasn't used the term High relative to NM for years while the term "HNM" existed, so High is basically their attempt to come up with an official meaning of the H, albeit a bit of a retcon. I would state something like "While the H officially stands for High according to Square-Enix, this proclamation came years after the coinage of the term HNM and years after Japanese and North American players each developed their own interpretation of what the H stands for".
I generally agree with the term HNM as Honorific NM based on what I've read in other forums, but some past FF terms, rendered from Japanese make me wonder if other possibilities should be ruled out. I wonder about the validity of the source. If the source was not a player back when the term was coined around the end of 2002, what they say can be fact or can be hearsay (interpretation of H after its coinage, sort of what the NAs were doing when they thought up Hyper). Specifically, I remembered the FFVII Materia W-Item, W-Summon, W-Magic and the FFIV special move W. Meteo. The W stands for "double". I'm wondering, I'm not fluent in Japanese culture and common abbreviations in their language: are their any words abbreviated by the letter H, at least in how they are rendered from Japanese to English? --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 20:51, 27 November 2006 (EST)
Has anyone considered making a list of all of the HNMs in the game? After flicking through just a few NMs I realized just how many of them could qualify as HNMs, now that the cap has been increased to 99, if it were me, the requirements to be counted as a HNM would be:
- Must grant a Title
- Must require at least a full single alliance (three full parties) with all members at 99 to defeat.
I don't honestly know what counts as a HNM at the moment because there are so many NMs that grant titles that require an alliance at 75 to defeat, and additionally, many of the so-called HNMs from the noughties can now be soloed, and I hardly think a HNM should ever be soloable.
--airsparrowhawk 11:40, 03 April 2013 (GMT)
Category makeover[]
Yeah...this category needs a complete makeover. 1) To settle arguements over the name, it should be renamed "Category:High Notorious Monsters", but, like Zoogelio said, make note of the other terms used and how SE used this term over 3-4 years after players used the term "HNM". 2) What is considered a (an?) HNM is highly an opinion. For example, I think Ouryu/Bahamut/Cerberus/Hydra/Khimaira/Beastmen Leaders/Dynamis Lord/Proto-Omega/Proto-Ultima/lesser Shijen/Jailers/lesser HNMs (Roc/Simurgh/Lumber Jack/King Arthro (I read somewhere that he was the first monster to be considered a "HNM" + a few others) to be HNMs. Perhaps we could add "levels" of HNMs? Kirin would obviously be above lesser Shijen, HQ Kings > NQ Kings, AV > JoL > outdoor Jailers > indoor Jailers, etc. Obviously, some stuff that were considered hard before are complete and total jokes now (a lot of the stuff I mentioned). Maybe we should count anything that was a rather big challenge for a period of time from when it was first added (for example, King Arthro was added when the cap was 50 (?), so he was obviously hard at the time).
An example of HNM "levels" (the letters mean nothing, I just placed them there as filler/variables):
===Level A===
CoP Wyrms
===Level B===
HQ Kings
===Level C===
Would ToAU Kings be placed here?
===Level X===
NQ Kings
===Level Y===
Stuff like Serket, Cassie, etc.
===Level Z===
"Baby"/"Jeuno" HNMs (Lumber Jack/Simurgh/Roc)
===King Arthro===
He's the first {{verification}}, so he can get placed by himself. (Or maybe he can get placed with the above.)
This is, of course, my opinion, and just an example (I skipped a lot of stuff) of what it could look like. --Jopasopa 13:50, 8 January 2007 (EST)
I think the bickering over the name should be kept out of this entirely. The easiest compromise is to rename the category as simply Category:HNMs. Any other organizations are up for debate (probably best put in the forums). --Chrisjander 14:02, 8 January 2007 (EST)
Or that. XD --Jopasopa 15:01, 10 January 2007 (EST) EDIT: Should we put the {{Move}} template up?
Should someone create a "Category:HNMs" and put the delete template here? --Joped 17:16, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
Requested Move[]
Move: Square uses the official term High Notorious Monsters. In addition, a new type of high notorious monster (HNM) will be added to the beastman strongholds. --GAHOO t/ c 20:40, 25 September 2008 (UTC)(as per Aizenmyou)
Officially recognized term for Square --Aizenmyou 00:09, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
No objections. --User:Charitwo/Sig 22:13, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
The French translation of the article uses "monstres célèbres de haut niveau"; "High Level Famous Monsters", then goes on to list an English version in brackets - "High Notorious Monsters" so SE have obviously decided that is what they will "officially" call them.
Commment: Would be interesting to see what they used in the Japanese article, so see if this matches too.
- ※Added the Japanese POL source. Japanese Source "ハイレベルノートリアスモンスター" (High-level Notorious Monster). --Aizenmyou 14:13, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
Leave a redirect from here though - while SE may use High Notorious Monster, Hyper Notorious Monster is much more prevalent in my experience. TheMysteriousX 04:35, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, Hyper should redirect to High. I had never heard "Hyper" used until the NA PS2 invasion.～♪ ☆--Aizenmyou 05:41, 30 September 2008 (UTC)☆
Comment: We can't do a redirect from category to category, pointless searchwise since links will be changed. But Hyper Notorious Monsters and High Notorious Monsters will redirect to Category:High Notorious Monsters --User:Charitwo/Sig 06:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds great. TheMysteriousX 17:37, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I support a move, but should it be to High Notorious Monster or just plain HNM? Just use the acronym since that's pretty much what everyone says anyway. Does anyone, except square in announcements, actually say out the whole thing except to explain it to newbs? --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 06:42, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
I support this move. --Melios 08:44, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Resolution: Move. Redirect Hyper Notorious Monsters to Category:High Notorious Monsters. --User:Charitwo/Sig 17:17, 5 October 2008 (UTC)