/Archive 1

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Splitting Abyssea Article

Clearly this article is massive; it practically covers all of three mini-expansions in a single page. There should be a logical way to break this down into several, clearer, easier-to-maintain articles.

Any suggestions on how to break it up? --Andurus 22:46, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

  • I'm quite happy with it as is. Sure it's large, but when someone new to abyssea in my shell wants to know about it, I just send them here. ~ Esdain of Kujata/Valefor
  • Ya I don't see any reason to split it up all the info on this page is generic for the most part. The only thing that is redundant is the NM tables. Maybe just get rid off or move all non-generic info to the correct pages and leave every else. - Simplemalk
  • I agree with Andurus that this article is far too large. The quality and utility of the content is not in question; it's excellent information. However, it makes plenty of sense to break this article down into a few logical, smaller articles. Elanabelle.Bismarck 05:45, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • I like the banners with the links to the separate zones at the top, but other than that it needs a reshuffle. The information is all valid, but there is just too much to take in.--Branwenbahamut 12:32, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Agreed. It should be split up, mostly into its primary section headings. --SimuAndy 15:31, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Disagree. One stop shopping for any and all things. Make sub pages for the sections with more extensive information but keep this as the quick reference area. I use it extensively myself and it is far easier than hunting from page to page. Old Sarge 19:48, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Disagree. I agree with Esdain, Simplemalk, Sarge - keep it all on one page. The only reason it looks so horribad now is because the wiki decided to cut the size of the information page down to be significantly smaller horizontally. If they expanded the page again - many of these things would not look so massive. When you go to Abyssea - you want to read ALL the abyssea info in one place - NOT have to figure out where the heck to go. So keep all on this page please or you are just making it more and more difficult to use the Wiki and we might as well start going somewhere else for information which is what you seemingly want us to do for a while now with your changes. --Birgitte t/ c 23:48, January 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Disagree. Wiki is already too much page jumping, I like being able to goto 1 page and not go thru 8-10 others just for 2-3 bits of info. Yes it may be large but it doesn't take any longer to load than any other page. Along what Birgitte said, maybe move ALL the banners to the bottom of the page and widen the text area. --Asthesis 01:28, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • I'm not suggesting that you should just draw a line in the middle of the page and split it into two. There should be one logical starting point to find out everything about Abyssea, and maybe this page is it (though might be more appropriate). As it stands, this page is not an easy reference piece, because the content is very mixed. I would expect to find a page on each major topic in Abyssea. The "Weakness Targetting" and "Armour Seals" sections in particular feels like they should be an articles/categories their own right, each with its own specific discussion and research. Right now this page reads more like a messy GameFAQs article than something I'd expect to see on FFXIclopeida.
  • Agree. For starters !!! Proc'ing and EAF seals should have their own pages. I would put NM progression under their respective zones. But, I also agree, to split this page too much leads to constantly clicking to gather the information you need.--Randwolf 13:01, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • To those who want 1-stop shopping, what if there were summaries of the split-out articles left behind on the page, with a link to show the remaining information? This is a typical way that the problem is addressed. (For example, the NM Progression is mentioned at a higher level, but then for further information the reader visits the detail page.) --SimuAndy 14:23, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

  • How about having the main page and then having duplicate pages for things such as "Staggers", "Seals" and whatnot.Zei 15:10, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
    That is very do-able. I did the same thing, already, duplicating the content of the rewards for 1-through-9 Boss Battles onto their respective pages. Another option is to have the Summary section be the inclusion part, and the Details section be the click-through part. --SimuAndy 16:11, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • The Simple Answer is this, make different pages for each expansion, Zone boss progression, and so on. Keep this page here with data regarding How to get Started, Generic Data of the NPCs, Explanation of Lights/Chests, and Weakness. In short If it pertains to ALL Abyssea zones keep that data here. If it is specific to a zone move that to a new page. --Tizoc 19:14, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
  • I agree with Tizoc for the most part. I like the single page platform Wiki's got going on now, but if splitting it into multiple pages is whats being leaned towards, then I think it needs to be done with a plan. Keep the zones on the intro page definitely. As well as keeping the introduction and how to get started. This would include visitation status, traverser stones, and (how to)navigate abyssea via confluxes. I think alot of the other content could be linked to. Section for mobs for instance. I think keeping the current "Abyssea Force Spawn Monsters" layout is perfect, and you could just include that in the mobs page which would include NMs also. You could also include how to target weaknesses at the beginning of this page. A separate section for Atmas and Abbysites, probably linked to the NM/Mob page via each boss' details/drops. Encampments/Bastion could get its own page. And Emyprean Armor could probably have it's own page as well. You would probably want to include NPC and quest details on the "Encampments/Bastion" section. Also, as far as the sections on lights, chests, and EXPing, I think you could probably have a section like "Partying in Abyssea", that could include all that information. But like I said, I like it just the way it is. This is just my $.02. --Mythik
  • I think this should be split up. A wiki is all about categorization and micro details. If I want to find out about Traverser Stones I don't want to scroll this whole page. It also has too many images. It also combines guidance with basic facts. It's just a big fat mess. ---- dibble 12:08, January 17, 2011 (UTC)

Oppose.pngDisagree, but... :

Tahngarthor TALK - 02:28, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
One of the things bloating the page really bad is the charts listing what sets of drops for seals can be obtained from which area from which mobs. I think these charts should be removed, as this information is adaquately covered on the individual zone pages. If this doesn't bother anyone, I'll go ahead and delete these charts, as I feel they're redundant and confusing.
  • I completely disagree with the idea of splitting up this page. However, I feel that while saying this, I should provide constructive criticism in hopes of reaching a compromise, as others have. The NM drop/KI charts are tremendous, and I do honestly doubt anyone uses them -- on this page, anyway. It would be good for people who don't want the page to be chopped up too heavily to state what they do and don't use, and that's one thing I never look at. Someone else mentioned that anything pertaining to specific zones should be put onto those zones' pages, and I agree -- those charts should be relegated to their respective zones' pages. Also, what is the point of the banners on the top of the page if they don't link to pages about those specific expansions? They just seem like useless clutter, in my opinion. Their redundancy doesn't even make them good eye candy. Unless they're given a use, I feel they should be removed. Everything else, however -- info about chests, NM weaknesses, etc. -- should stay on this page, I believe. Ctrl+F is your friend, and people who have a hard time loading a page of this size -- which really isn't even that bad, since it's largely text -- are definitely in the minority. Kohan 13:50, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
  • I would either support splitting the sections into their own articles or adding show/hide links in each section. As it is now the page is extremely unwieldy to edit. Mifaco 04:22, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
  • My vote: No change to this article. To some extent there is some minutia that can be referred to elsewhere; but considering the fact as what actually constitutes minutia will vary greatly between readers, I'd say it would be best to leave this article as is with no changes. I find it an excellent "one stop shop". --Endlesspath 07:55, January 20, 2011 (UTC)
  • Disagree. The article may be on one page but it is split between section. I see no reason to have to take some of them and just throw them on to their own pages for nothing. Is the page massive? Yes, 100%, but why is something bad just cause its big. You get everything you want off of just searching Abyssea. If you want a specific zone either type in the zone or click the link not far down the page. The content menu splits it up enough if you want to look at something specific, chances are you know what you are coming in to find. Click what you are looking for then start reading. The only thing splitting this up will do is cause people who are still rusty on abyssea to click through random pages to get everything they need. --Overblaze 18:27, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

Please split this page up with links to the other pages. It's huge and unwieldy. Eldelphia 09:32, January 22, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it needs to be split up but setting up with links to other pages would make it highly more organized. Right now it's pretty disgusting looking imo. :( It would benefit it if it was changed with a brief explanation on the "abyssea page" and then a more in-depth explanation on another page with a link. -Rinako

I strongly agree that this article needs separation. While I understand why people may like a 'one stop shop' the article is over grown. Separate pages should be made/modified for weaknesses, treasure boxes, NM drops etc. - Razorback, Bahamut

Disagree. This page is great for people that know nothing about abyssea and don't know WHERE to go looking for all the things you guys are talking about. Littledarc 22:26, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Support.png This page should definitely be segmented. Like Wings of the Goddess, the other expansions, and all the previous add-ons, Abyssea is more than just a quest or even a series of quests. It is a significant change to game play with many facets. I would argue each of the Abyssea add-ons should be given an independent Category:Software page — like A Crystalline Prophecy, A Moogle Kupo d'Etat, and A Shantotto Ascension — from which players can drill down on separate pages for zones, items, quests, NPCs, etc. IMHO, this conforms to the wiki's overall organization the most closely as all the Abyssea content is also separate add-ons. Additionally, since each Abyssea zone is itself independent from all the others, there will be little loss of correlation, if any. —The SCSIBug 07:28, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

  • I personally like having all this info on one page, makes finding things easier and allows you to refer to once topic in order to better understand another. --Gropitou 04:44, February 1, 2011 (UTC).
  • I love how this page is setup. If I'm doing something and need a to quickly look something up it's a lot easier to have this one page up than three or four pages. Just go to the table of contents and boom click what you need to see. Now with that being said I do think that SOME of the information should be moved to there respective zone pages, like the NM Charts, and the Seal Charts. This page in my opinion should just list the links to each individual zone and the main abyssea mechanics, like weakness procs... chest mechanics.. how light works etc things that pertain to all zones and people SHOULD know about. I'm in favor for keeping it how it is but MOVING the charts somewhere else. --Elgorian1990 19:20, February 2, 2011 (UTC)
  • I disagree with SCSIBug's statement, as Abyssea is not like the prior expansions and add-ons. Claiming that WotG, ToAU, etc., approached the level of complexity that the Abyssea add-ons do is, quite frankly, something I cannot agree with at all. While WotG added the relatively simple Campaign system, and ToAU had Besieged, Nyzul, and Salvage, those components hardly possessed the same depth as Abyssea. Furthermore, the other portions of the aforementioned expansions were relatively standard fare, such as missions, leveling areas, and so on. Let's say, however, that you want to argue about ToAU's sheer amount of options (including others that haven't yet been mentioned, like Pankration and Assault) and say that they compare to Abyssea's content. At first, this may seem to be a valid comparison, but all of these things are segmented -- they're distinctly different activities started in different areas via separate NPCs, and so on. Abyssea is Abyssea. Weaknesses, treasure chests, atmas, abyssites -- the latter two of which already have their own pages, mind -- apply to all zones, all the time, in every case. Simply put, it is not the same at all. It is a comprehensive series of add-ons that requires a comprehensive main page. As I'd stated in my prior comment, if anything should be removed, it's likely the things which do not universally apply, such as the NM charts, and the graphic banners. Kohan 07:13, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
  • I actually really like how this is set up. I think it's good to have a large, generalized page that can give some basic info on it, all organized in one place. Totema of Siren talk 05:14, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment: The problem here is that it's not basic info, it's a very detailed guide to every aspect of Abyssea, from seal drops to weakness triggers.Mifaco 03:53, February 8, 2011 (UTC)
  • Please, please split it. Make a presentation page, a guide page, and some reference pages for people who only want a certain type of information without having to load/navigate such a big page (really *slow* on some environments).--Hetchel 00:32, February 7, 2011 (UTC)
  • Do not split it up, there's no need to make multiple pages for everything. This will end up being just as annoying as when the assaults page was broken up. --Vince 17:35, February 7, 2011 (UTC).
  • I don't think this article needs to be split but at the same time I think there can be more links applied to certain parts of it, if possible. For example I wanted to look up abyssea lights to see what proc'd a light but I had to go to the abyssea page and scroll a ways down just to find what I was looking for. There is a lot of information on that page which is nice to just go to the page and you can learn everything you need to know on a single page. --(A)GERM - Cerberus 21:23, February 11, 2011 (UTC)
  • Ok guys, discussion has gone on long enough (14 Jan 2011>15 Feb 2011) and there is no clear concensus. I would advise someone either post a viable/completely setup alternate page asap to continue further discussions, or that we remove the discussion header on the topic page of concern. --Endlesspath 21:57, February 15, 2011 (UTC)
  • Well said Endlesspath, with that in mind I do propose a split of information just so there is less clutter. Here is my proposed layout.

Introduction (Banners & short paragraphs)

--- abyssea areas here


  • How to Get Started,Stones/Time, & Fame
  • EXP, Lights/Pyxis Info, Important NPCs, Navigating Abyssea
  • Abyssea Notorious monsters
  • Empyrean Armor
  • Weakness Targeting
  • Abyssite

This way there is a MUCH shorter page for abyssea, and pertinent information can be found on it's own page --Tizoc 00:58, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Tahngarthor TALK - 09:32, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
I'm really not in favor of splitting this article at this point. I could wrap my head around the idea of reducing some sections to be more summary-like, with a line at the beginning of the section that says:

Main Article: Weakness Targeting

as an example. But a lot of people like the convenience of all the most important info in one place and as long as the page load time isn't excruciatingly slow, I think it can be left alone (except I think I will remove some of those charts).

As 17 Feb 2011, vote summary (redundant votes excluded): Split - 13 Leave as is - 16

I advise OP to remove discussion header and leave as is. --Endlesspath 20:05, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Empyrean Seal Chart

  • What happened to the list of sets of seals off Abyssea NMs? It was very useful to know which NM drops which set so I can plan which NM is best for my group. I liked the chart because I could look at it for all zones, not have to go to each page and dig through each NM for all the seals. That takes forever. Bring back the chart! Meara
  • Agree completely on that as to why the Empyrean Seal Chart was totally deleted; it was a perfectly useful one stop listing. Per history User:Tahngarthor aka 'Sysop' outright deleted it and referred to some general purpose listing of armor (and totally missed the point of the data summary and aforementioned discussion above). Maybe this fine User:Tahngarthor aka 'Sysop' could at least take that data summary he blatantly deleted and repost it at least on the armor page he referred too? --Endlesspath 12:41, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
Tahngarthor TALK - 18:40, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
There is no need to be so nasty and rude. If you read up in this thread, I mentioned how I felt that these charts were gigantic and one of the worst things bloating the page, and since all of its information was and is already available on other pages, I felt they weren't necessary. I even said

"I think these charts should be removed, as this information is adaquately covered on the individual zone pages. If this doesn't bother anyone, I'll go ahead and delete these charts, as I feel they're redundant and confusing."

and got no opposition at the time along with a few people thinking the charts were bloating the page, and one "I doubt if anyone even uses them." So I went ahead with the change, having received no objections. I personally always looked up the specific zone when I needed to see which NM dropped what, and I felt this is what most people probably did. I can put the charts back on the empyrean armor page, but I felt they were redundant.

Also: just because the closest thing to a consensus was keep, it doesn't mean that the article shouldn't be improved in some ways if it can be. Some blocks of text are unnecessarily long or have user comments stuck in them, and these can be cleaned up, as well.

  • I understand the page is cluttered by some peoples views, but the chart was one of the most widely viewed sections of the page, it not only had the drops sorted by zone and jobs but showed their relationshiops with other zones making it easy to target specific drops for a certain group. In addition it lists the triggers and helps plan progression runs a whole lot easier than clicking the other links and navigating pages for trigger information, please either return it or post it on the other page whichever is easiest. Zacosham 16:59, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
There are no statistics available that can suggest or imply that an individual section of a page is the "most widely viewed." If it was really so widely viewed, somebody would have reacted against my comment about removing them. Tahngarthortalk-contribs 18:40, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
Tahngarthor TALK - 20:58, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
::Update: The area/NM based seal charts have been restored to the Category:Empyrean Armor page. I would also like to state that just because an administrator makes changes to a page, you shouldn't be afraid to edit it. Admins and sysops may have certain abilities, but as far as editing goes, we are no more content experts than you are. Do not be afraid to challenge changes made by us, just be civil about it.

Just want to thank all of you cut & pasters... you have cut out and moved the useful information from what was a single source location (of which I now have to link to separately) and have left behind the Minutia... many thanks to ~ User:Tahngarthor and User:Mifaco
:Keep up the great work!--Endlesspath 00:56, April 4, 2011 (UTC)

Tahngarthor TALK - 06:43, April 4, 2011 (UTC)
The article has gotten so long that making a few sections more consise (without elininating them entirely) makes a lot of sense, because if it gets too long, it becomes faster to click the links to other pages than to scroll up and down the mile long page. I'm sorry you're not happy, but obviously there's no much we can do about that. This page is still an excellent resource and you're really making a mountain out of a molehill. Please post again if you have something constructive to say so that we can continue to improve the article. Mindless flaming and immaturity will solve nothing.

Copy from Category page

Tahngarthor TALK - 18:48, February 18, 2011 (UTC)
WHY in the world was this page copy-pasted out of Category:Abyssea? I can't believe it took me this long to notice- but you do NOT move pages in this way- The history is broken in this way. I will be restoring the page to its original location.

In the future, please, NEVER try to move a category article yourself, especially with no discussion. Even if it's justified, special actions must be taken so that history is preserved. In fact, in general you should never move a page by yourself by copy pasting. PLEASE leave a notice on my talk page if there is an urgent need for a move.

Update on 22:22, February 18, 2011 (UTC): Proper restoral of edits from the copypaste move completed.