User talk:Wotever/Gude:Astral Flow Party/Archive

While this method of gaining exp is a testament to player creativity, and strategically working with (not around) the mechanics of the game, and while I myself have wanted to try this method of exp partying myself, there is one glaring error in any argument for this method of gaining experience points.

The Puller is NOT the same level as the party members

If their levels were all equal, the way a level-synced party is supposed to work (not just intended to work), and they were STILL able to pull this off, then I would whole-heartedly support this method of exp gain. Then, I would say, "Hurray, this is a breakthrough in strategy the likes of which Avesta couldn't top! Congratulations to everyone who achieved this feat!" I wish I could say that. But I cannot. Instead, what could've been a feat, and something to really look up to, was a cheat. Party mechanics are meant to work INSIDE parties. Parties and alliances are meant to take on tasks such as exping together: a challenge to overcome. If party members try to subvert the difficulty of this challenge by using a higher lvl character, they are met with severely reduced exp. But this is not an argument of whether or not it was the intention of SE for players to work around the party system. Instead, this is about the dignity and self-respect of the player base. Just as many vain, high-level players (and innocent players too, I will not forget) were banned due to Salvage duping, I would not be surprised if a similar fate happens to those caught Astral Burning. What is at stake is what we stand for as players, and as people. Do we play to challenge ourselves, to gain competency over our jobs, and to become more skilled and masterful players? Or do we play in order to satisfy our intense and burning egos, which cannot be sated until those intangible trophies of level 75 jobs, rare items, and membership to exclusive HNM shells are grasped? As with the Salvage dupping issue, we must once again ask ourselves this question. We must ask ourselves what we value, and consider whether what we will show the world as players is our honor, companionship, determination, and integrity - or fake exteriors of decked-out 75 jobs, hiding a perverse desire to be artificially respected and lauded even in our depravity.

My message to all those who disagree with me is this: consider your desires, and what exactly you hope to achieve within the larger scope of your life by doing this. And consider... who do you want to become? We all suffer under similar desires, but it is our choices that define us. And no matter how small or insignificant this issue may seem, the truth of the matter is, what we value in life has a much greater impact on everything, and everyone, around us, and those values come through in our every day decisions, even those small, insignificant decisions we make in a game. SO - here is my question to the FFXI community: What will you choose?

--Oliveman 03:58, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

It's bad enough to see this in game, but now someone put forth the effort to advertise it.

"I have done this so many times and taught others how to do it after I have earned more than 10 million Gil by selling leech spots and holding for 150~250k. The best exp rate was completing a 60,000 exp run every 45 min. If I can do it, you can too and maybe even better!"

That pretty much says it all. This is depravity at it's worst. It's not about being jealous, it's about being a good sport and doing things legit. The fact that you "sell leech spots". The game isn't all about gil and exp, the fact that you're cheating the system, and SE hasn't done anything yet, doesn't make it acceptable.

Exactly what is benefit of this form of partying for the game as a whole? Why would this page even be acceptable for wiki? Similar pages, such as, Power Leveling, in the past have been removed. I see little difference between this and being PLed through levels, as both scenarios involve leveling in a manner that was never the original intent of the game. Wiki needs to destroy this page, doesn't anyone have integrity in the game anymore?--DarkTrance 02:39, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

IT'S ILLEGAL!

There's no polite way to put this. The only time a GM might declare this monstrosity to be "legal" is if no one else is in the zone. The entire construction of this idiocy is to basically nuke every mob in a certain situation of the zone.

And spare me the baloney about "The only reason I gripe about this is that I can't do it." No. The whole point of this is that it has always been an exploit in controvertion of zone monopolization. You can't get that kind of XP without effectively nuking everything in the zone. So don't lie to us, you Astral Cheaters. --Starcade 04:38, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

If you wish to exp old style then do so, but this doesn't mean everyone must do it the way YOU LIKE it to be... the reason I posted this is after seeing a lot of people having trouble making an Astral Flow Party successful.

"It's not about being jealous, it's about being a good sport and doing things legit." about doing things "legit" the GM said nothing about this, it is legal, we are not taking advantage of glitches or hacking, in fact they said it is within our right to practice this if we wish. and about "jealousy" a great possibility exist, me think~

"The game isn't all about gil and exp" true, gil and exp is almost like 60% of the game and the rest is other stuff... do a /sea all, you'd find people either seeking a party, farming, exping, or afk selling.

"the fact that you're cheating the system, and SE hasn't done anything yet, doesn't make it acceptable."

Because you think it is cheating it became now unacceptable... sorry to tell you this, but SE runs the show not you, and so far SE gives a thumbs up for Astral Flow Party!

"Exactly what is benefit of this form of partying for the game as a whole? Why would this page even be acceptable for wiki?"

With all respect the answer to the first question is too clear any retard can figure it out.. hello .. speed leveling. Why do wiki accept this; well if you haven't noticed this website was designed to share info, knowledge and experience about the game.

Lastly if you disapprove of this, ok then that's your opinion but doesn't mean you must stop people from doing it or dictate how they should play the game, it's their characters they are free to do wotever they like with it.--wotever September 9, 2009

It's people like you who are KILLING Final Fantasy XI for the rest of us -- what few of us don't seem to desire to take every freaking illegal shortcut to RMT our characters to 75 like people like you do...

It's zone monopolization and needs to be addressed as such.

For what it's worth, given your statement on how Square-Enix accepts it's existence, the comments Sage Sundi made against RMT would be, similarly, out of line because the game elects not to take legal actions to shut those websites down (giving them a (false) semblance of legitimacy). --Starcade 04:38, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

They do know about this for like more than 2 months, we even talked with them after so many times reporting people trying to stop us from making an Astral Flow Party, they said it's free game to do Astral Flow Party as well it's free game for anyone to hit a unclaimed mob or CFH mob. Some of them admit to do Astral Flow Party on their client accounts, if someone would know if it's legit or not more than me and you it be them! -- Wotever

60%.... I think we are playing different games. This shows a complete lack of integrity. This experience isn't earned, it's handed out in free samples. The people you invite in to these groups are learning nothing about their jobs, will have no real experience in situations outside of ill-gotten merits. And the fact that your "selling spots" only reflects your disreputable motives.

Most of the camps your are using are ideal solo camps for jobs struggling to find exp, and your marketing them, occupying mass quantities of mobs, and chasing out anyone who doesn't have enough gil to pay. It's like selling water, and telling anyone without enough gil that they'll have to stay thirsty. Just because SE hasn't yet cracked down doesn't make this a correct or legit way of earning experience. I've more respect for RMT.--DarkTrance 20:26, September 9, 2009 (UTC)

Nop we are not playing a different game, people either spend most of their time exping (Battle campaign, exp pt, seeking for a pt, meriting ...etc) or making gil (crafting, farming mats, selling NM drops, questing, dynamis money, limbus money, and BCNM) very small % of the play time is spent on missions, other quest, PvP, Besieged and other stuff.. and don't go around making stuff up about monopolizing the zone if you read section 6.2 it says don't hold the zone too long cause other people might want to do w/e, and don't collect mobs that people are farming.. seems you write without reading carefully... you say you have more respect for RMT maybe it's because you are one of them, either way I really don't care because I am doing fine without your respect lol--Wotever September 10, 2009 (UTC)

I wish to notify the creator of this Article that the Article has been reported not only to FFXIclopedia -- not by me -- but also (and this one by me) to the Special Task Force of FFXI. --08:04, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

'Haha! go ahead Hauntress report Astral Flow Party report me as well! report it to Wiki, SE, even National Security! wine to them!! they already know about this for more than two months!!! and maybe then you get the to know officially if it's Legit or not, (I don't need to hide my name) ---> Alphonza in game --Wotever September 10, 2009 (UTC)'

Jeez you all, how on earth does this activity demonstrate a lack of integrity? This topic has been acknowledged by GMs and judged to be within the games rules and intentions. I have PERSONALLY had many people try and disrupt the SMN burn process and been told by GMs that they cannot do such a thing, so let me state clearly here, "You are NOT allowed to disrupt SMN burn parties". Doing so is considered to be HARASSMENT OF OTHER PLAYERS. If you do you can be removed from the zone and/or suspended from the game. I don't sell the leach spots in my runs nor do I ever plan to but if Alphonza can, good for him! It's no different than sky link shells selling alliance spots for abjuration gear, or players helping out other players by poping NMs and passing on lots. Neither activity is against the terms of service agreement. Stop your hating. --Zandra7 08:23, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

in⋅teg⋅ri⋅ty –noun 1. 	adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

Selling "leech spots", using an outside "puller" to utilize game mechanics in way that abuses the current system. It's unethical for a boss to date their employee, but it's not against the "rules". It's immoral to cheat on your spouse, but it's not against the law. It's dishonest to call this a legitimate way of doing things which so many things about it involve abusing the way things are. Just because SE hasn't actively done something yet, doesn't make it right. May as well get a game genie or a cheat code, as this is just ill-gotten experience points.--DarkTrance 21:27, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

All charges that this activity is immoral or unethical are ridiculous, by that logic anyone who has ever participated in an xp party that benefited from a PL also has no integrity (most likely including yourself), not to mention anyone who has ever helped a party by PLing them. --Zandra7 19:47, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Actually Zandra, if you search the forums, you'll see a topic I started regarding my opinions on PL from well over a year ago. I don't do PLed parties, every experience point has been earned without outside high level assistance. I've not used a PL since I was a lv 20 RDM in Qufim Island, my first job before unlocking advanced jobs. Every level I've ever earned has been in a universally accepted party, every merit also so.--DarkTrance 20:56, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

DarkTrance; Good for you! I'm glad you found a way to play that you take pride in. I have as well, and even though I think your way of playing is tedious, inefficient, and offensive, I can still find a way to let you play the way you want too.

What's offensive about doing things a honest way? You know, some people still play this game to have an interaction with other people, and not just level 75 UberPwns. Level sync gave an opportunity for players to play together despite level, and the response is only to abuse the system and turn it into a pay-per-level. This and power leveling just send the wrong message and cheapen the game for others. If your not going to enjoy the game the way it was intended, you may as well go off and buy gil and characters and save yourself all that tedium which is the game I enjoy. This is simply that "The game doesn't begin until level 75" mentality that creates crappy, dependant and selfish players who wouldn't go back and kill a Dark Dragon for rank mission unless it included a hand out. That's the real arguement here. Square enix gives us a tool to enjoy the game and play with our friends, and guides like this, and the acts supported by it, only created a further divide between Elitists and Players.--DarkTrance 02:02, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

First you claimed the game isn't mostly about gills and exp without even thinking twice, and I had to give you examples so you left the topic... then you claimed that I forbid everyone within zone to exp/farm without checking carefully what I wrote.. then you continued to claim it's not right what we do... if you mean integrity as in morel and honor, then my answer is.. it's a freaking game; I can go compete on unwanted items and mobs, sell an item for an over rated price, lot on an item that I don't need, delevel myself from 75 to 5, drop a Ridill, at the end of the day it's still a game RL what really matters! If you mean as in dishonest ... then go read the POL rules carefully, if you don't believe your eyes ask a GM or send a email to POL, we aren't breaking any rules. If your still whining about cheating the system then what you say about players getting PLed for exp or skill up?? or asking a high level friend to kill his AF quest NM??? or have their gears or gil handed to them at their very first job at early levels from a friend or relative?? or using a Ninja for a tank instead of a PLD, (SE admitted it was never meant to be, but yet they promote players creativity?)? or you had to afk in a Zone for some real life reason and your party member had to do all the dirty work to get you the exclusive drop or some item you want to place on the AH?? or an LS hogging a HNM though no one needs it in their LS but they want to make it hard and expensive to obtain?? Why didn't SE do anything about them??? Ding~! It's because they didn't break the rules! I can bet 100% you have at least done one of those, and if you use any type of 3rd party program, then with all respect you are one hell of a hyp⋅o⋅crite(don't think you need to look that up). so don't go around BS about some "word" you just learned from the dictionary... my god if your way would have been applied 90% of the servers' population would have gotten kicked out of the game and party would still be using the Distortion and Magic Burst Ice method and making 10k per hr if lucky. Thank god SE is in charge not you! they approve for players creativity! and no we don't use game genie, game shark, or whatever is out there, we use normal account without any sort of 3rd party tools, so pretty much by the book these exp are well-earned, even the leecher's (if you counted the time invested to make gil it is no different than the amount of time to make such exp so technically it is like having a Convert ability from gill to exp). If I help my friends collecting the mobs and holding the mobs so they can exp then according to your theory I am no different than someone giving out money and gears to a sibling or friend so they can't get their hands dirty and earn their own toys! if you are angry about me selling leech spots then according to your theory I am no different than those who are selling exclusive drops or their time to lend a hand! Only reason I started to sell leech spots is after holding 3 times for free for some friends and after I asked to leech while someone else hold instead of me, everyone started to act cute and quite so I started to refuse to pull/hold for nothing and I gave them my rate and they accepted, with a crazy increase of demand I realized I can make the price higher and make mad gills, I am burning my time for the gills so all is fair!Wotever

Okay, I am going to jump in on this, and say the following, after watching this page for awhile. A) Astral Burns have been around for years, literally years, I would go as far to say not long after RoTZ release. However, Level Sync has pushed this style, and this subject into the light for a lot of players. B) SMNs don't get that many invites, and when they do, they are asked to heal, which sure if they enjoy healing and don't mind it, that's fine. But there are those who would like to level up their job doing what their job is actually called, Summoner, not White Mage, not Red Mage and not Scholar. C) There is absolutely nothing, and read nothing that makes this style of partying against the rules, unless you appear on top of a party, and start grabbing all their mobs, which would be disruptive to other players, and thus against 4.4 Section F of the PlayOnline Member Agreement. The moral standpoint however is slightly gray, I'll admit that. So, in conclusion, I am not siding with the Yay or Nay side here, this is really starting to get out of hand, and at the end of the day, most of these parties avoid conventional spots, so why do you care so much? If you think someone doesn't understand their job, don't play with them. They pay for their game, so let them play it the way they want to. I'd say that roughly sums up my feelings on the matter. --XedalOfAsura 22:01, September 13, 2009 (UTC) (P.S. This should have a Guide tag at the top of it, referring to the actual article) (P.P.S. I've gone over the page and "censored" some of the comments, mainly below my own actually >.>...)

Just wondering why this page is getting more flack than the Astral Burn page? - Leithe

Added tags and referenced this discussion--DarkTrance 06:01, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

This is a Guide
People are allowed to make guides (i just marked it as such to make it clear), and unless Square Enix asks us to take this down, it can stay up. You may be able to start a deletion debate to see where that goes, however. But I'm not going to outright delete it. -- 02:53, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Deletion
The entire article is about using current in game options in a manner that is not and never has been the original intent of SquareEnix. 1. Level Sync - I looked back at which was the original announcement regarding the new Level Sync option. In many places, it explains Square Enix's intent on Level Sync being used to "The new Level Sync system is the result of extensive discussions on how to resolve these concerns, while preserving game balance and avoiding abuse and power-leveling by RMT groups. It addresses the issues that have resulted from a steady stream of new, low-level players joining an existing game world populated by scores of high-level veterans, and is part of the ongoing effort to clean up the FFXI community and remove players in violation of the users' agreement."

The very description states they intended for this system not to disrupt game balance and to avoid abuse. The Astral Flow party by design abuses this system. That original post also discusses, while briefly, SE's thoughts on power-leveling, and this shares many similarities to power leveling, in that it involved outside, high level assistance to get past the limitations of being a lower level, and gaining experience points at an unnatural rate in an unnatural environment.

2. Never has paying gil for experience points been necessary nor an expectation to get ahead in FFXI. Level Sync was made for incomming players to play with experienced players and be able to sync down to. It wasn't designed so high level players with significant enough gil could buy and sell spots and to turn zones and dungeons into a commodity. This "guide" discusses many times about making money selling camps. The very concept of requiring gil to be in an experience party only perpetuates the thought that large amounts of gil are requires to get ahead in this game.

Any scenario in an experience party that has outside assistance for the duration of the party, whether it be power leveling, or this, can not be made into a legit way to party. Both are notorious for dominating area mobs by unnatural means for unfair gains against players less wealthy, or simply without a legion of HL's waiting around to spam cures.--DarkTrance 03:52, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

By the very definition of the rules of FFXI, DarkTrance's first statement makes this illegal and bannable as a matter of course. The fact that open cheating is being sanctioned and encouraged by the staff of FFXIclopedia is abjectly disgusting to me. It's players like the guidemaker that have basically siphoned all the life and joy out of a once-fun game that is now dead. --Starcade 03:38, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Comment Back your statement up with something from the user agreement, or from a SE official because your words conflicts with a couple of facts: 1) SE is not doing anything for the last 3 months to prevent though contacted by a lot of people regarding the topic. 2) None of us got banned or even warned so far. And if it's about taking the fun part out of the game, my answer this only effects the players taking part in Astral Flow Party and no one else... if you want to play the game the way you want to then do so, because there is no one that is going to stop you if players want to Astral Flow Party and take out the fun out of their lives.. hey hey!! it's their lives...

Yet a few say it harms other players but so far no one has proven that Astral Flow Party has any impact on people who aren't getting involved in this activity. All I been reading so far is made up reasons like "legality", "Dishonest", "Rudeness" or "Monopoly" in desperate attempt to delete this guide. Legality: tell me where in user agreement Astral Flow Party or any of it's step is illegal, Rudeness & Dishonest: how can you be rude when you are gathering mobs that are mostly untouched actually in some zones I wrote down most of the mobs been up for more than 8 hrs without getting killed, if no one wants for a long period of time how can it be rude to collect them unclaimed too for 45 min?? the mobs being unclaimed and still EXP-able by others break the "Monopoly" theory. Dishonest: Being Dishonest within this game is breaking any law within the user agreement. Wotever

The purpose of http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org is for players to share information, experience, mistakes and success. The main reason I made this guide is because I have seen a lot failing an Astral Flow Party, and I am sure a lot of people would love to know how it is accomplished, the purpose of this guide is to show how an Astral Flow Party is done, trading leech spots for gill was only mentioned twice, nothing was mentioned about selling camps for gills, I noticed some people can't help to add a lot of words without checking.

Just because someone thinks this is not a justified way to earn exp or gill or make an insane amount of exp, doesn't mean they can forbid others from learning how it is done. SE has not passed a law that disallow trading exp for gill, or that forbids of using non party member's assistance. The topic does not promote breaking the rules of the game or the use of third tool programs. If the topic is deleted, players will still ask how it is done and Astral Flow Party will always exist and will eventually become part of the game as long as SE approves it or says nothing about it (ignoring it&letting it be is a type of approval anyways).

This Guide demonstrates the combine use of knowledge of macro and commands, how Hate works, game lag issues, mobs behavior and battle tactics that a lot of players don't know about or never thought of looking it up. Spreading this knowledge might open further possibility, ideas and new tactics for EXP, NM fights, or other activities.

We are in year 2009 where everyone has the right to speak and share knowledge, I don't expect the same thing that happened to Galileo Galilei by the Roman Catholic will happen here today. Wotever September 14, 2009

Comment LOL comparing yourself to Galileo. Still remains true that your using the systems in place in a way other than what was intended to do something that is game breaking, exclusive, and is obviously not in the best interest of the game as a whole. This is an exploit, not a strategy. Your only encouraging more people to continue exploiting. You claim that it's okay because SE hasn't done anything. When Yonin/Innin came out with 100% Ninja Expertise, the GM's said everything from calling it an exploit to saying that using the ability in an unintended manner could lead to trouble. Was the same with the Quick Draw -5 ability making 0 Delay Quick Draw on Mirke Wardecors. GM's would say it's working as intended, and then others would say you risk being banned to use it that way.

Your arguement that SE's inaction makes it okay is a weak one. GM's do what they are told, and until enough people complain, they likely won't pay much attention. It takes more work to fix things than to leave them alone. The end result of things like this could lead to Level Sync gimping, or adjustments to SMN's who get legitimate exp and hurt the game for lots of people just so a few people can get large amounts of experiences points by doing things outside of the norms.

If this form of party was really 100% legit and okay, then their would be no controversy surrounding it. Obviously it adversely effects other players in the game, or no one would be speaking out. This form of play hurts everyone in the end, creating inferior players, and the idea that you can't get ahead without lots of gil and a group of Level 75's standing over your shoulder.

There is an intent that goes along with every rule and system in the game. Occassionally people find a system in the game and find a way to exploit it in a way for ill-gotten gains. That is ALL this is. An exploit. It doesn't justify a guide, nor a page, because it should not be happening. Regardless of how active SE might be to stop this, it's obviously NOT the original intent for Level Sync to be used. You can refer to my prior link as proof of that fact.--DarkTrance 08:01, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

While I do strongly agree that the user and all the mentioned users in the guide should be reprimanded (by GMs of course). I have to support on the cause that for having existed for only a handful of days this guide has brought about a good deal of flaming and namecalling. With it as it is currently I cannot seriously see it subsiding without having the page protected and regularaly monitored. I mean seriously, the guide has been here for less than a week and look at how large this page is just in defending it and attacking it. If it were discussed in a civil manner I would vote or just ignore it alltogether, but in it's current condition I have to support --Themanii 08:10, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Comment If people don't want to be civilized in their behavior because they don't like something doesn't mean the subject has to be dropped. the guide was made for others to learn how to do Astral Flow Party if someone doesn't like it they don't have to read it, it ain't right letting someone control what we read or learn, it's within everyones right to be able to seek and spread out knowledge, so far everyone that did a successiful Astral Flow Party is over the moon, a lot of Japanese are dying to know how, only if I can write in their langauge I be happy to teach them. --Wotever

Comment Yes this is similar to Galileo story the church didn't agree with his, to them it was considered Unholy thoughts (just like Astral Flow Party to you) and tried to make him unheard (yep like what you doing). There is nothing about Astral Flow Party that break the system; call for help targets was intended to have shared hate, the area attack was intended to hit all targets within the area, Avatar's hate was intended not to pass hate to their summoners, and players were intended to interact and cooperate within the game's border; and this issue was around long enough for the decision makers to know about it. Someone pointed out it harms the game or other players but then again really never mentioned how, I see people doing Astral Flow Party while the rest of the server doing their own thing without any problems, the game ain't going to crash... and people that are camping mobs within the same zone are still getting their mobs.. if it harms the player that are using this method, then it's their account, who are you to speak for them?! if you say it harms other players then look again there are accounts being sold for a long long time and that is a real illegal issue among them a lot of famous names being sold, this is like getting instant access with zero effort and there is more of them than Astral Flow Partys before, now and after, and yet the game and players still go on, how does this destroy FFXI???... some people will make up anything to support their opinion Wotever

Comment "Your arguement that SE's inaction makes it okay is a weak one." It might be that your reading is not as good as your writing... I told you if you really want to know if it's legit or not Email POL or call up a GM in game to find out if it's ok or not. Anyone can follow up and check that I am right by contacting POL or a GM. I didn't posted my name or picture or my friends' picture in the guide without being 100% sure and that there is nothing wrong with Astral Flow Party. Darktrance, I am sure if you really wanted to know if it's legit or not you would attempt to contact POL or a GM, but then again I don't expect you to say the truth especially when you previously twisted&turn and made up some stuff in the past about me trying to prevent others from getting mobs they wanted(which was not true at all) or guide is to sell exp for gills when it was really focused on how to execute an Astral Flow Party(selling leech spots was only mentioned twice and with few words). Removing the guide cause there's a lot of fighting weather they are right or wrong is not a really good reason and will not solve the problem, people will still want to know how. Wotever

Comment You really need to quit making this a me versus you thing, It's not constructive. I've neither lied nor am I an idiot, if that's what you are implying. I must assume your doing this because you've no points left to argue. You cannot, seriously make the point that this form of "party" is natural, and was ever in the original intentions of the game. If Square wanted people hitting chain 200+ at Lv 10, they would have required more experience points to achieve the next level. Your doing this by having an outside, high level party assistance, giving yourself and your group and unfair advantage. Regardless of how many times you mentioned it, you DID mention selling leech spots, which just goes to show that the intentions of this party format are disreputable, selfish, and exclusive. Removing the guide because people think it's an incorrect and offensive way of playing the game is the appropriate action, because it serves no constructive purpose except to teach others how to get around the boundaries and game mechanics made to make things equal and fair.--DarkTrance 16:21, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Comment "You really need to quit making this a me versus you thing, It's not constructive. I've neither lied nor am I an idiot" Am I making it a versus?? you are the one who constantly reply and patch this discussion, I am the guide maker I got to defend my work. 1) you first said I chased out people out of the zone, and dropped the topic since it was a weak case based on ,shall we say, uncertainty. 2) Then you say it's illegal to sell exp and preform Astral Flow Party, after telling you to check the rules and with POL&GM, you started to use the immoral&integrity BS, told u it's a game not real life, you now say it was not intended.... 3) You been trying so desperately to make this guide sound like a gill making guide not an Astral Flow Party. 4) Each time you present a case I have an answer to it, each time I present a question you either don't have a good answer or avoid answering them..

Comment For 1) it was clearly to try make everyone reading to think I am the bad evil dude in black barging in the zone telling everyone to #$%# off, stripping everyone's right to farm or fight mobs, clearly that wasn't true from the start the guide stated to avoid controlling the zone or collecting mobs people are fighting. Either way, lets say a rude person reads this guide and decides to do all the mobs, guess what, if someone or a group needs a certain mob, there is no way stopping them from getting what they want as long as the mob is unclaimed.

Comment 2) Your ground is so weak on this one, SE drew lines so that we do not cross over which Astral Flow Party does not cross, You can't find anything within the rules as prove that this activity is illegal, Put something that states it is illegal before you say it is illegal. We have asked the GM's about this and made sure 100% it's legit before we went further, and as long as SE does not pass a law that says this is an illegal act then it remains legit. If this was not SE intention, guess this wasn't the first; Ninja was never intended by SE to tank, players came up with the idea. Immoral, man review yourself and get a life, we are not killing players or making them starving or suffer.

Comment 3) The guide is easy to access for anyone reading our discussion, the Gill making factor being the spot light of the guide is untrue. Further more nothing is wrong with it, the user agreement has nothing against this or PLing for gills which a lot of high level mages do. All of the time I made gills was not my call, Either I get a /tell by a SMN or group of SMNs asking me to hold and I ask the leech spot for selling, or I get a /tell from someone who wants EXP for gills and I start gathering SMNs then we all move in to the zone we are EXPing. My time and am not going to spend it for free especially when it takes about +45 min a Burn.

Comment 4) all your points was repeated and heard and answered but you never had any good answer for my questions and points, like you did not answered me when you said about being "honest" that a lot of players do thing that wasn't "honest" according to your theory and still no one make a big fuzz about it.. If others think this guide is inappropriate they don't need to look at it let others who want to learn to learn it... same as Porno, a lot of people see it inappropriate but that doesn't mean they can stop everyone that want to see it from seeing it! lol and about turning this to a contest, to be honest you are the one who sounds so annoyed to the point as every freaking Astral Flow Party is happening in your Mog House while your trying to get some sleep but you can't because all those spam on your log is keeping you awake. After seeing your words conflicting with a lot of facts on several occasions I am not going to reply to you after this you can write whatever. Wotever

You keep going back to the point that we've brought up "gil". You mention it in you guide. We didn't make that up, anyone can plainly see it. You keep going back to calling me a liar. I've not twisted what you've said, infact I can go back and reference it to your guide point by point. I do think that comparing your guide to pornography is appropriate though. You don't post pornography in public places where you know they will offend people, unless your just a @#$%. You keep attacking me, why don't you stick to the topic of Astral Flow partys. If you can't defend your guide without insulting people, your not going to get very far.--DarkTrance 15:57, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Comment I aint playing FFXI much lately, but i knew about this and i always thought that personally, its not a case of weather or not it's ilegal its a case of respect and rudeness. If a group is pulling a whole zone, other people will suffer. Soloers and small groups or even full 6 person groups will lose out and thats not fair. If people are asking for gil for areas or to pull thats just... yeah, you really can't sell spots in a game world quite frankly, its just... wrong, rude, and doesn't make you some-one i'd like to know quite frankly. Personally, i dont think it's ilegal, i just think its disrespectful to the other players around you.

If Square Enix says it's ok for you to do and you want to do it, that's up to you. But to me it is "cheating" and says a lot about the kind of player that you are. While the massive xp earned must be exhilarating, the 'Level Up' graphic must be equally less satisfying. At least it would be to me. One of the hallmarks of this game, is that it is hard. Do you not feel accomplished after grinding out a level? After getting a subjob to 37? Or a main to 75? It's about the journey. Also, how long is an endgame shell gonna keep you if you don't know how to play your job? You know there is a solution to this. Everyone solo in the Astral Burn areas! Shouki 16:50, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Delete this Guide. No offence to certain people but some of us have been doing this since pre-ToAU. I remember a few people on Allakazham calling us cheaters then. Even the practice of using SMN Pets to make Bomb type mobs self-destruct was considered 'cheating'. For that matter, soloing certain mobs as RDM/NIN, likewise. It is rather strange to see this issue revisited. The only difference I can see is that players can now repeatedly do this more often via the use of Level Sync. Previously, we had to stop once the SMNs reached 40+. Shortly after COP was put in, people were going after players who were using the tank + 5 BLM party setup as 'cheating'. For that matter, let's not forget the DOT + Zone tactic used by many solo'ers. Or staging mobs. When I first started staging mobs, I got reported to a GM for "monopolising mobs". I am sure most of us have experienced circumstances where a WHM would leave the party because, to quote DarkTrance, "by having an outside, high level party assistance, giving yourself and your group and unfair advantage".

As far as I'm concerned, as long as they don't disrupt the activities of other players...

Regarding the issue of 'selling leech spots", what about Tele-taxing? Or being paid to craft? Or a host of other things. Sometimes I get paid to help kill a NM like Fenrir or for someone else's AF3, and yes, even to getting summons for certain less than skilled SMNs. Heck, I even remember when a WHM would get PAID to Raise someone in the Dune (or at least to get a Pine Juice for their trouble).

And that's why I support deleting this guide of Wiki under the guiding principle of "Ignorance is Bliss". Bliss for Wotever since he has less competition and can make more profit plus fewer of those SMN-kiddies around the better? Bliss for DarkTrance because what he doesn't know won't hurt him. Once the Crusade against Astral Flow Party Guides on Wiki is over, may I suggest the Crusade against Unneeded, Patronizing and Condescending "Tips" on COP Mission Guides on Wiki. Talk about beating a dead horse.... oops!

For those that need a bit more of a challenge, get a stop-watch. Then limit yourself to one BP: Rage OR BP: Ward per BP cycle. Do COP without any RR or Items, to simulate what is was like before the 'nerf'.

PS I hear that a PLD75/BST can Charm almost as well as a 75BST/WHM! Cheat!

PSS Wotever, take the guide off. It took some time but SE did bow to the "critics" and PUPs lost the 'ability' to solo Diabolos. (Don't worry guys, it's been nerfed.. and the Guide .. err modified)If people get annoyed by a method that barely earns half of what a good meripo PT can get... I'd hate to lose my D.A.D. Next time you find something like this... shhhhhh. Remember, his ignorance, your bliss. In their world, all the rich are all the thieves.

Asphe 18:49, September 14, 2009 (UTC)

Delete this guide please. Regardless of "legality," it's the definition of rudeness to monopolize mobs in this way and I can no more support a guide on how to do it than I can support a guide on how to send tells to people insulting their gear. It is not in the community spirit which this wiki is supposed to be about. Thanks. --NanaaMihgo 03:18, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Comment It is impossible to monopolize all the mobs with a hand full of group, people will still manage to pick them off, but this time without the worry of linking, they might even hit without pulling hate, which makes it safer for outsiders... if you have not noticed most of the zones and mobs being pulled are mobs usually untouched and not farmed by players... how can it be rudeness?! rudeness would be like moving into Qufim Island and grab all the mobs in the zone and disregard everyone that is EXP. Wotever

Korroloka Tunnel is now useless for farming slime oil/bat wings/spider web, exp parties, and BST soloing because of Astral Burners. There is no one else there because they know there is no reason to bother going in there anymore as every mob will be "in use" already. Gusgen Mines and Ordelle's Caves are also BST solo spots; fortunately, no one uses these spots for astral burns--yet--on my server (though I have seen them in Buburimu Penninsula of all places, an extremely popular solo/duo spot for low-levels). And it is impossible for me at least to pick off individual mobs from a astral burn puller due to the INTENSE lag which it creates, not just for you but for everyone who is passing by you. Yes, this is rude. --NanaaMihgo 21:09, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

You are very incorrect with that info, if you read the guide carefully it states in section 6 not to pull any mobs being farmed. Either way, if the mobs are pulled by an Astral Flow Party, someone outside the party can still get EXP (if the mobs aren't 'Too Weak') and drops and save a load of walking time because all the mobs are gathered at one spot without the risk of getting link or add which makes the process for non-Astral Flow Party players that are hunting certain mobs much easier for them to claim and makes it pointless for an Astral Flow Party to keep pulling that type of mob that is being hunted by others. In most cases I have encountered are people seeing us doing a Astral Flow Party and take the mobs they are looking for, honestly nothing can be done to prevent them from getting their mobs, and some of them sometimes try to be polite and ask us if it's ok to get the mobs they are farming which I personally don't mind. Astral Flow Party makes traveling for low levels much easier because they don't have to use a lot of Silent Oil or powder to get across the zone. About Lag issues this Guide points out how to deal with lag, you must deal with lag weather you like it or not a lot in this game in a lot of activities like dynamis, besieged and battle campaign, for a lag that effect someone passing by is very weak and bearable compare to the puller's/holder's lag and pullers/holder don't have any issue with lag, the passerby can still pass by and achieve whatever. There is nothing rude about Astral Flow Party. --Wotever

After actually reading most of the guide I do not feel like it encourages the actions people are stating that it does. The zones which it uses as examples are not zones which are commonly used for traditional experience point parties and commonly have <10 people located in them, but there should be a section on the guide explaining as a disclaimer that if this is done in areas such as Valkrum Dunes - which it has been done in the past even prior to level sync - that it can be seen as an action against the ToS. I mean, certain merit and experience point parties have been known to actually claim several monsters at once, this method leaves most of the monsters yellow which therefore means that someone who is hunting particular monsters can pick them off as desired. If you want to be really picky, there's the Nyzul Isle Investigation guide which has third party program information right in the guide itself and not just "encouraging" breaking ToS as some people have described in regards to this article! The structuring and information presented in this guide is adequate and does not merit deletion. -- 16:35, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

Comment Thank you Ariannas, a good point you pointed out. Which reminds me, in game I found out some of the people who complained about Astral Flow Party are involved in the use of 3rd tool party... clearly was too easy to get rid of them by reporting them... some people see it is okey for themselves or others to bot even though this is within a direct violation of the user agreement but sees Astral Flow Party that doesn't break the rules so unholy. I bet some of our hot-headed friends here either do bot or know friends that bot but doesn't say anything about it.. Biggest prove for this fact that the guide about Nyzul Isle Investigation that was pointed out did not had a huge fuzz about it... using bot does impact other players, it prevents a fair competition or equal chance for all, yet to some people does not see it as bad as utilizing the sources to make an over-powered EXP gained within legitimate terms. --Wotever

Mmkay, I'm not going to join in the bickering about this because quite frankly, it's silly. I've never had an astral party hindering me, and IMO (Not fact, opinion) it's players who are at fault for 75's who can't play their job.. You allow it, you don't kick ppl and tell them why, or do it in a way where's there's no chance they'll listen, you're the problem. Anywho. what does fillmode in Nyzul Isle have to do w/ anything? I'm 98% certain that someone using fillmode does nothing but help their group, at most you could be idealistic and say it cheapens the "Badge" of having armour, but being unfair to other players? Botting, yeah, lag inducing 3rd party tools for NM claims, yeah.. But I kinda lost the logic at fillmode hurting everyone's chances at Nyzul gear.. Also, if I remember correctly, there was a pretty huge stink about that page, and it was even removed from a time before being reinstated, and the author put another copy online off the wiki. Not that it really matters, but the page shouldn't be deleted, the method isn't against ToS and currently is at most bad manners, which are protected by the ToS. Agreed with Wotever, it shouldn't be deleted. (BTW, you might want to reword the paragraph above, it came off as a bit of 'these people disagreed w/ me so I tried to get them banned! Haha!' from the outside looking in. Alaik

There is absolutely no reason to delete this article. It is informative, comprehensive, and as far as I can tell accurate. Most of the people voicing opposition to this seem to believe they have a special insight into SE's "intent" about whether or not this should be allowed and say things like "SE didn't intend people to level like that". In reality, as far as I know SE has never said this is against the rules. GMs (who are SE's representatives to us in-game)have actually come out and said that it is perfectly legitimate. I know for a fact GMs have taken the side of astral burners when people have tried to interfere with a pull. I can understand why some people may have the opinion that it is cheating or unfair, but those people must understand that their opinion holds no more weight than the person that feels its a nice way to exp. Bottom line is if you don't like it don't do it. Drjohn 02:02, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

ose}} This guide should stay as long as SE deems it a legal way to play the game. It is great that you all have opinions on the matter for or against it but, in the end, it is really up to SE if they stop this method of game-play and, as long as they do not, there is valid reason to have a guide on how to do it. There are MANY other ways in which people play FFXI in a manner that seems unfair to other players. This is just another one on the stack and to be honest I think it is just fine because Summoners don't get much love in game-play anyways so why not let them have this. Who cares really it's a freaking game. --Jubano 15:42, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Because a game without rules, guidelines, or fairness just isn't worth playing for some people. If everyone just did whatever they wanted, their would be no challenge, no effort needed, everyone could just take parties like this for EXP, then sit and Campaign battles and get max experience spamming Etude's, and buy gil to get the best armors, and hire PL's, etc. Why not just purchase a character that already has jobs leveled, and save yourself exping all together?

No thanks. There is a reason that some things in the game feel like a chore at times, and some things don't. As much as we love or hate it, without the grind, accomplishments have NO meaning. One could argue in a game, they have no meaning anyhow.. but if they didn't mean something, if not just false sense of accomplishment in an otherwise fun game. Despite people groaning, as a whole, the game NEEDS challenge, needs rewards placed at a distance. If the entire process was as easy as just showing up to and Astral Flow party with a few million gil to get ahead, then your isolating all the people who would do things the acceptable way.

If everything was handed to us, we wouldn't want to play this game. May as well hook up a game genie and start with a fully unlocked relic and full ares. That's why this method is wrong and why this guide is wrong. Because regardless of how bad SMN has it (which is argueable considering their ability to party and solo efficiently) the vast majority of players want things equal and fair and this is neither.--DarkTrance 15:56, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Added the delete sign to the Astral Burn page, as it's essentially an identical guide, except that creator wasn't discussing gil for camps sites. Ideally, the outcome of this discussion should determine both fates.--DarkTrance 06:00, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

Comment For those who wish to live life the long way around then do so, take your time and get your hands dirty, getting skill up as you go and gaining playing skill, be a slave for the game for long hours... then do so because no one is going to stop you from grinding, if you see someone super-duper-hyper-zooming-ridiculously-click-of-a-button from level one to level 75 it won't stop you from grinding if you want to grind, the only three that can stop you from grinding are SE, your Credit Card company and yourself. For those who want to take the short route, save yourself a lot of headache, want to get 75 now but skill up and learn how to play later, and have that extra hours to spend it on your real life.. then hell it's your character, your life, don't need someone to tell you what to do! Astral Flow Party clearly has it's advantages and disadvantages if you see the advantages of Astral Flow Party is worth it, then do it, you ain't going to harm anyone else aside yourself. Everyone has the freedom of choice to do and to be, and as long as the choices you make doesn't breach the User Agreement you have nothing to fear or worry about. --Wotever September 18, 2009

I see no draw back in SMN Burn, we burned a lot with the Alpho, our Skills were a lot behind and we weren't very familiar with the jobs we burned, in a matter of fact we died countless times, but as long as we were forced to solo for skill up we started to learn the job, by the time we cap all our skills, we now know a great deal about the jobs. This guide really helps me understand what is going on the holders party and how things are done on their side. If someone don't think it's right for us to level the way we want to, then it's not our problem at all, it is theirs alone. As long as SE doesn't object to SMN Burns I'll vote for the guide to stay. --ZikoX 09-19-09 02:00 PST~

Keep: Before you decide that this is worth of deletion, you need to consider that Astral Burn is only one possible type of XP party in this game. There is manaburn, tp burn, balanced, arrowburn, and other types of parties that do exists. All have their advantages and disadvantages. Astral Burn is a strategy that is all or nothing - it requires a very specific party of people of specific jobs (both the smn party and pulling party) with one member of the appropriate level sync range, and once the summoners start executing it, they run the risk of pulling hate with Astral Flow bloodpacts (if you think all hate on the designated target went to Shiva - you are so wrong because an equal amount of hate went to that summmoner on that mob and I have seen the pulling party lose hate on their target mob after just 1 Diamond Dust), summoners getting killed by aggressive mobs that do pop in camp after the level sync is in place, designated target AoE TP moves, and getting resists on Diamond Dust itself. What could be a 40k+ XP pull could very well end up being a 0 XP result if things don't go right. We also have our problem with epeens that show up just to disrupt our pulls, and summoners/pullers that are complete idiots. You only see the massive XP chains if the summoners time their bloodpacts right and do not get resists along the way. Ayrlie 16:21, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Unlike Manaburn parties, TP Burn parties, Balanced parties and Arrowburn parties, Avatar Flow Parties require an outside party to intervene in order to make it possible. That's the difference. If Astral Flow parties could conduct themselves with a single party of appropriate level, I would have nothing ill to dispute about it. However, all guides instruct high level assistance/party to mass aggro multiple mobs to bring back to a camp. Not only that, this guide specifically discusses turning camps into a marketable commodity. When you can do an Astral Flow party without that outside party, then I'll wholeheartedly agree that this is a legit way to exp. BUT SMN's at that level CANNOT do this on their own. As a Corsair, I've been in multiple types of parties, I've done slow steady EXP with small BLM groups, fast tp burn parties on Colibri and the like. In all instances, none required outside interference. This form of partying suggests that the most promising way to get ahead isn't through effort, but by circumventing current systems, purchasing additional accounts, and using outside party assistance to do so... or having enough gil to purchase your way into them. Guides like these send the wrong message about the game I've been playing the last couple years. Considering adjustments made in the past to setups that include mass experience gains at a rate and by means unintended, I wouldn't be surprised to see an update gimping Summoner's Astral Flow in the future. Even without, this form of partying benefits a few at the cost of many.--DarkTrance 20:46, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

I have several times become upset when people or parties violate the unwritten rules that players have adopted for the game. However, these rules, as commonly accepted and used as they are, do not necessarily line up with Square Enix's rules for the game. When dealing with mobs the only thing that they prohibit is holding a mob for an extended time, and MPK (which is more difficult to do now, but still possible). The common etiquette for not partying where others are camping, not stealing their mobs etc is nice, but it is not the SE rules of the game. PLing, or outside assistance for parties is ABSOLUTELY acceptable and is not prohibited in any way. PL assisted parties are VERY common and accepted by the majority of players so you cannot viably argue that Astral Flow parties aren't ok because you disapprove of PLing. This would be considered an extremist position by most players. I think the best way to handle this is to rewrite the article to remove any suggestion of using this technique for "obtaining gil" or exploitation of other players, and to encourage players wanting to use these techniques to do so in areas that are not popular or occupied by lots of parties. This would be a reasonable compromise between the opposing sides. Square Enix is NOT going to say this isn't ok....I've spoken to GMs about similar issues and I know their position well. Politeness, Morality and In-game etiquette are great and should be encouraged, but as a world traveler I know that different people, particularly in different cultures have vastly different ideas about what is polite or moral and what isn't. I don't think that this article should be deleted because several very outspoken users think that this practice is wrong. Bottom line is that if SE doesn't prohibit it then it's allowable. Please understand that I am not slamming the people that oppose this practice...they have some very valid concerns. I just don't believe that their concerns justify deletion of this guide. It should also be said that some in this discussion have made comments about what SE's "intention" with regard to partying and game play is or that the article should be deleted because it's just immoral. This is a very dangerous path to tread. You have only to ask them (SE) what is acceptable or not. Based on my own dealings with them (SE) in the past, I believe that the author of the article did, in good faith, contact them and get their guidance. The rules are the rules, no matter how unpleasant you may find them to be. You can't (and shouldn't be able to) dictate your style of play to others either in game or in the FFXIclopedia. --Bobby 19:48, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * The article should not be deleted.

On a side note, I believe I've read somewhere of people calling GM's on astral burn parties (or the parties calling the GM themselves), and the GMs have explicitly said that astral burn parties ARE NOT against the rules, validating this existence of this guide. --Jawat 22:24, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless SE outright states that this is against the rules, then it's not against the rules. Rude? Perhaps if there is other people in the zone. However, it's also considered rude by the community to take someone's NM if to goes unclaimed, but that's not a RULE as far as SE is concerned. Let's not confuse the communities self-imposed morality(which can vary person to person, or even region to region) with the official rules that SE enforces. If it not against the rules, it's fair game to talk about. People can decide for themselves if it's the "moral" thing to do if they wish to consider using this method.