Template talk:Armor

Example
The main problem I've found with using a template like this is that you can't use other templates (such as, , , etc. ), tables, or color changes inside it.

Here's an example of this template in action:

Here's an example without an icon:

Comments
Note:These comments are leftover from when the template was full-page.

Pretty neat. We can just use and  to get the icons - same for elements. They can uploaded with another name to make it easier too. (I.e. Fire.gif). The blue background makes the images look funny though because of their background. Was a white background really that bad? --Gahoo 13:44, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Yeah, I know what you mean with the icon images. I'll change the bg to white for now, but if people really want the blue bg we could always change the icons so thier bg is transparent. The only reason I used a colored bg in the first place is because it was brought up on the Item Template talk page and I thought it looked nice. ~ Karuberu 14:01, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

The look is nice, but you can't use color in a template when inserting variables, and templates can't be inserted as info :(. Also, you'll have a problem with the lower sections, since you ahve a variable amount of info in tables.  I actually think the Armor/weapons templates should be limited to just the statistics sections, so that the other info can be added in easily.  Otherwise new people will come to the site, and have no idea how to change a minor spelling error because its in the template format... Though maybe the statistics and Other Uses section would be fine in a template, since those use neither color, or a variable amount of stuff in a table. --Chrisjander 15:34, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Yeah, I was just about to mention the problem with colors. There's probably a way around this, but I can't find it. New users would have to learn the template if they wanted to add anything anyways, so I don't see that as a problem. And if they just wanted to fix a spelling error, all they would have to do is look through the text for the mispelled word and change it. As for the tables, I already took care of that. You simply add them after the template. ~ Karuberu 15:40, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

None isnt supposed to be plain - its supposed to look like this: --Nynaeve 18:11, 13 June 2006 (PDT)
 * None

Also, While it does work with "None" in those positions - it wont work with everything else - I think that that kind of template should just stick to the Statistics section. Everything else stay the same so it can all be the same. If you change it to that way I will support it otherwise, I am against this since it will rip apart everything else that has come before it with colors and templates for crafting and such. --Nynaeve 18:15, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Ah, yet another unspoken rule (which seem to change at whim).

I'm going to change the the example to show you that it will work with everything. It'll no longer be a real item, but that doesn't matter. ~ Karuberu 18:48, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

You just bloody butchered the synthesis part... There has been much talk to make the synthesis the way it was and you just go and think you can change it at a whim again... Cut it out... There is a way to write up the synthesis part and it includes color and the crystal part looking the way it does on the original. This is getting really annoying. Why do you always think you can change things to your liking? People have spent a lot of time and energy getting it to look the way it did and you go and change it - again... I'm sorry, if you won't take other people's opinions and hard work and decisions into consideration and butcher it like you do. I'm against it and won't use it because its inconsistant and goes against the rest of the rhythm the site has worked towards. --Nynaeve 19:07, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Actually having it like that was a mistake (I handwrote that edit instead of copy>pasting, so it was an honest mistake). I meant to have the way it is right now. It still doesn't have color, but colors don't work in this template (until I, or someone else figures out how to put them in). Plus it's not like this is a real item, there's no need to fly off the handle like that. ~ Karuberu 19:35, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

It still comes down to the point where we have said before and pointed out that color doesnt work in a template - see old Food Template talk - So why would you try to make this whole template into all wiki - We colored them for a reason - a lot of time was spent making said colors and deciding which to use and then perfecting it with color templates - why on earth would they not be used now? Food Template worked around it - Had to not include it because so much time was put into making the colors for everything. Its just you being inconsiderate again to the huge amount of time and thought people have put into this site and making it what it is now. Sure you are putting thought into making these templates - but you aren't including other peoples thoughts and efforts into them. You don't fully think through what you are doing before you do it and that is what makes me upset everytime you do it. If this was the first time, I wouldnt be so pissed but this isn't the first time. If you made it so just Statistics was Wiki like everything else it would work because everyone else's efforts wouldn't have gone to vain but you again ignored my suggestion. Big surprise. --Nynaeve 19:53, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

I originally made this as an experiment, just to see if it would work, and since it did, I put it up for consideration. I put Ganiman/Daniel's statistics box into this template, as well as a near carbon-copy of the original item template. The only real problem with it is that it doesn't allow the crystal color scheme. That may have taken people a long time to work out, and it'll be unfortunate if that work will be lost, but that's really not enough to kill this template just yet. And besides, as I've said many times already, I'm working on getting colors to work. I'm sure that there's a way.

Oh, and again, I'll have to ask you to keep your comments on the topic. I know you don't like me and/or the way I do things, but that's not what's up for discussion (you can always yell at me on my talk page). ~ Karuberu 20:51, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Its not that I don't like you - its that I don't like your attitude the majority of the time. I have helped you out and been nice to you many times and have acknowledged when you have done good things, its you that has the clear dislike for anyone who disagree with the way you think. You can always go back and change the template to put it into full wiki if you do figure out how to put color in, I honestly don't think its possible. Others are willing to work around what can and can't be done. You don't and the fact that you are advertising this as a usable template on your user page and anyone that seeks for templates will see this as a usable one and not in fact just an experiment as you say it is. So obviously your actions go against what you just stated above. I don't want to see people using this when its clearly screwing up the hard work of others. Colors are important and you saying otherwise is just foolish. You didn't see Ganiman go and make a full template without putting it on the Item Template Talk Page first. He got opinions before he branched out and made it fully usuable to other members. So right now, sure I am not happy with you, but I don't hate you, I just don't like your disreguard for what your actions could bring upon. And me saying this stuff about you directly ties into this said Template so I feel it should go here. The first time it happened I said nothing and let it pass, the second I just gave simple advice, its the times I have to repeat myself or other others to again have to tell you something you should have known or considered that I begin incorporating personal and repeative attacks into my reasoning. You have a problem with it talk to an admin. If they tell me to stop, I will, but till then, I will express my opinion on something as I have been. It takes multiple offenses to get me like this. --Nynaeve 21:06, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Nynaeve, it's been nice debating things with you, but I think you've said all that you have to say ("Colors are important" and "Karuberu is insensitive" to sum it up). I'd also like you to reread the comments on this page. I think you'll see that you were the one that changed the mood from quiet conversation to a heated debate.

I'd like to here the opinion of the mods on the implementation of this template. I know Gahoo thinks it's "pretty neat," but what do the rest of you think? ~ Karuberu 22:48, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

I don't like it for one reason: no color. Color adds an entirely different dimension to a page, which this format unfortunately lacks. If we can find a was to fit color into here, it might work, but since most of the code still needs to be entered in by hand (such as the recipes) I think a traditional template (like this one) will only limit the changes that can be made to a page. I think the templates should be limited to the Statistics section, and use a regular page template (like the original Item Template) with actual templates imbedded in them.

My idea would basically be thus:

Item Template:

[[Category:]]

{|cellpadding="5" width="100%"
 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Statistics

 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Other Uses
Guild Points Value:

Used in Quests:

NPC Sell Price: XXX~XXX gil
 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|
 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Synthesis Recipes
(Skill cap)
 * Yield:  x
 * HQ 1:
 * XXX Crystal
 * x 


 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Used in Recipes

 *  - (Skill cap)
 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|
 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Desynthesis Recipe
(Skill cap)
 * Yield:  x
 * HQ 1:
 * XXX Crystal
 * 1 x 


 * width="50%" valign="top" align="left"|

Obtained From Desynthesis

 *  - (Skill cap)
 * }

How to Obtain
Auction House Category:  > 

Quests

 * 

Merchants

 * {| border="0" width="60%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="2"

!width="30%"|Name !width="35%"|Location !width="35%"|Type
 * align="left" BGCOLOR="#ffdead" colspan="3"|Price:
 * - BGCOLOR="#ffdead"
 * - BGCOLOR="#e3e6ff"
 * 
 * ?-?
 * 
 * }

etc.

And, depending on the item, would just fill out one of the templates, and delete the others. This allows for colors where needed and changablility in the Weapons/Armor/etc templates where needed. This also allows one template to pull triple duty. Since Food/Medicines need color, they can have their own template, and Keys as well, since they have a special case with the addition of maps and treasure lists. --Chrisjander 23:13, 13 June 2006 (PDT)

Yes I am done "debating" about your idea. I do have nothing else to say on it and I do think I sumed it up nicely.

On the other hand, the idea above is better. Since they are all Wiki Templates, they wouldn't take up much room on the template page and can be deleted at will so its not a big deal to list them all. Its true that with all of the above templates, the statistical party is pretty much the only difference. Also, this one keeps the standard that has been used on Wiki and doesn't try to undermine the work of others. I am for something like this. I would be for the original Armor Template if it looked like the rest, but since it doesn't, I would have to say that this one at least sums up all of it. The Armor Template page would have to be made just into statiscal et al now though for it to fit into the purposed Item Template. --Nynaeve 04:03, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

Time Out
Everyone needs to take a small step back and a deep breath. Take a moment to read the "Thanks" box in the FFXIclopedia:Community Portal. Ok. Done? Now - my thoughts as an admin, user, rather significant contibutor I think, and non-techie (who frankly does not understand how to make one of these nifty templates). We are dealing with a few things here I think. The FFXIclopedia depends not only on the frequent contributors who will input the majority of the information, but also the casual user who notices a quest fame level is off, or a skill cap, or a typo. This is what allows a wiki to outshine a database where an admin needs to respond to an error report. The larger templates make it too dificult, or perhaps simply too intimidating, for a casual user (and others) to make corrections.
 * 1) A simple template helps to avoid complex and non-intuitive coding. The resist icons or colors for example.  These are nice to have and use not for updating purposes, but because they can be remembered.
 * 2) The statistics box template i think works because it it only really dealing with numbers and a few generally common words (i.e. All Jobs, All Races, WAR etc.). It allows for some rather complex coding regarding where everything goes and the box etc. and allows for global changes in the event that it is needed.  My only problem with this is that it is somewhat hard to know where everything goes without looking at the template page.
 * 3) The full page template (which I admit is neat) does run into some problems in my mind. It has the same problem as the statistic box template with respect to knowing which input goes where, but x4.  But the largest problem that I see is updating specific sections cannot be done - click a subsection "edit" above to test.  The information resides only in the template, which, when full with a page of information is rather unwieldy and hard to decipher.  SE does not change item stats often, but they change/add synth recipies relativly frequently.  Skill caps need to be adjusted etc.  This is very hard for the avgerage user.

In reality I think the focus should be on getting the information and remaning items into the FFXIclopedia and completing any partial entries. The community is more in need of having an entry for Bronze Cap +1 than of fixing the Bronze Cap entry to look exactly like the Genbu's Kabuto entry. While there is some disparity among "complete" entries, overall the information is there and that is what's most important. I understand that setting a "standard" now will allieviate some changes down the road, and I am all for that, but I think wholesale changes to the formats at this time should be considered a long term project after the remaining items are added.

--Gahoo 06:59, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

Thank you! Adding entries with correct information should be the focus of this site, not in what format it should be done. I wish more people would think that way.

Hmm... I hadn't noticed that section editing problem... I suppose that could be fixed by putting a into the template so that the little edit buttons don't appear above the sections that can't be edited, but that still wouldn't really solve the problem of average users not being able to figure it out.

As I've said before, I've been doing a lot of research on templates so I could find a way to get color into this template. I found a rather complex way to do it for a single-recipie page (also allowing "None"), but since there are many items with multiple recipies, that's not good enough. I still don't think that color alone should be enough to kill something (because isn't important in providing information). But I realize there are other problems with this experimental template, such as the complexity issue, so it's probably better to just make it into a statistics section template like suggested. That was always my back-up plan anyways.

On a side note, I found out that in the newest version of Wikipedia, you can put templates inside of other templates (like we've been wanting). It appears that FFXIclopedia is an older version, so it doesn't work here. I don't know what it would take to upgrade the site to the newest version, but if it's not a major project, I think it would be something to consider.

Now, If noone minds, I'll change the template to be a statistics section template.

~ Karuberu 16:35, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

Just the statistics section is good, though I'd suggest taking the little Image thing out for now. We're not Somepage, and making those little images would be a project in and of itself. If at a later time someone wants to devote themselves to making the thousands of little images, then we can add that, but until then, I think the template shouldn't include it for the time being. --Chrisjander 17:11, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

How about I make it optional for now? If you just leave that section blank then no icon will appear and there won't be an indenture. The real discussion for this is on the Item Template talk page.

I think as long as we're making it look like it does in FFXI, why not have the icons too? Most icons are used repetatively, so we wouldn't have to make one for every item.

~ Karuberu 17:23, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

I understand what you are saying Gahoo, although, I don't think Karu really does.

I am glad we are making these just statistics. It makes a lot more sense in general and Gahoo is right, it not only fixes the formating issues, it makes it simpler for the new/occasional editior. I mean look at the recent pages. A bunch of people just started editing and once shown the current item template have added many new pages as well as uploaded pictures for them. It would be a shame to alienate them by creating something that isnt easily understandable or accessible via edit buttons.

So overall this is good. I wouldn't mind the item picture buttons inside of it but I think Chris is right that, that might be an undertaking in itself when we should be making pages for things that havent been made yet. So I guess that will just have to wait til we have more time to dedicate to finding and downloading all the little pictures. --Nynaeve 18:55, 14 June 2006 (PDT)

FYI
I am not a major adder of items, but in case this matters, with the wiki upgrade templates within templates now works just fine. So for example (most complicated one I could find):