Category talk:Weapon Skills/Archive1

Could someone add the levels at which you attain each weaponskill, or at least add a link to where we can find out this information.

--Bitucus 01:40, 3 July 2006 (PDT)

I was thinking about adding this, but we'd have to word it as This WS is available at this level since you still need to get the skill required for it to actually get it. I'll see if I have time to turn this into a project... --Chrisjander 07:30, 3 July 2006 (PDT)

Something else that needs to be done; I didnt see this but it would be handy to show which WSs are available for main job only. For example.. Scythe: WAR and DRK get Shadow of Death, but a BST must have WAR or DRK subbed to have access to it, however, only DRK gets to use Guillotine and Cross Reaper. http://www.ausystem.org/~aushacho/gbox/ff/skill-e.html in referance. --SephirothYuyX 14:52, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
 * I see now that theres a description in each WS, it would be more handy if this could be somehow displayed in the main weapon category though. --SephirothYuyX 14:55, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Testing New Look
The colors I used might not be too great... just messing around. Maybe put the skill level next to each WS name too like I did with Decimation. --Ganiman 17:10, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

For argument's sake I threw it into the main:

I like the new look ^^ --Chrisjander 17:19, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Problem is going to be for something like Dagger where 15 classes are rated. --Gahoo 17:21, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Just like you have the last row set up, you'll just have to gauge the size the columns will need, and limit the number of weapons listed on the same row as Dagger. --Chrisjander 17:24, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Actually, the info needs to be a little more refined: some WS's are main job only (Dancing Edge for instance) while some can be activated by a sub (Cyclone for instance). --Ichthyos 17:33, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

So maybe multiple icons and a key? Although I can't quite figure out how many are needed (2? 3?) and what the key would say. --Gahoo 17:39, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
 * I guess this is the whole EX/SP notation right? So we'd need 2 icons, one for main only and one for main and sub only? What do they stand for anyway? --Gahoo 17:45, 29 August 2006 (EDT)
 * So something like above? But the [[Image:eks.gif]] should be like a yellow (caution) check or something. --Gahoo 17:59, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, it's the EX/SP notation. I used to use this reference page for weapon skills and caps. For each weapon type there are two special sets of jobs: EX and SP. Weapon Skills marked "EX" are usable by players who have one of the EX jobs set to main or sub. Those marked "SP" are only usable by players with one of the SP jobs as their main. Also we should note which is quested and which is the relic WS. Possibly also the skill level of the WS and/or the inherent WS elements? --Ichthyos 18:10, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

The EX/SP jobs just need to be listed once, I think after the heading and before the weapon skills. Like for axes:


 * (EX icon): WAR, DRK, BST
 * (SP icon): WAR, BST

--Ichthyos 18:19, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Er, sorry. What I meant was, we don't need to have columns for the jobs. We just need to say what jobs are in what group, and then put the appropriate icon beside each weapon skill. Like for Axe, only Spinning Axe is EX and only Calamity and Mistral Axe are SP. The rest of the Axe weapon skills don't need icons. As for the EX/SP nomenclature, I think one of the annual FFXI books published in Japanese described the weapon skills in this fashion but I'm not sure. I'll look into it in a bit. --Ichthyos 18:31, 29 August 2006 (EDT)


 * I can't seem to find the source of the EX/SP naming scheme, but I believe that EX is supposed to denote that a certain WS is "Exclusive" to certain jobs. SP denotes that it's a "Special" weapon skill for certain jobs. I think I differentiate the two in my head like so: SP abilities are main job only and SP WS's would be the same way. --Ichthyos 19:22, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I agree that the EX/SP thing is kind of meaningless, whenever a WS is Exclusive to one job only (like Hexastrike) its only one WS. Anyone able to get the skill for the SPs and subs a job that has the WS will get it. If a job is marked as not having it, you'll have to sub a job that does have it to get it, that's pretty simple to me. Its possible that you might want to mark the exclusive skills thou, because you cannot get those from a sub. You can probably just mark it on the job column with a * or something to signify its WHM only or whatever. --Chrisjander 18:34, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

After reading the last post by Ichthyos, I have to slightly disagree. While that may be a good way to notate them, I like to be able to just look up my job column and see all the WS I can use with it. That way I'll know whether as RDM I can use Dancing Edge or not (I can't). Its just easier to look at that way, in my opinion. --Chrisjander 18:37, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Ah, that's true. I guess I'm just trying to make the information compact, since it's going to be impossible to have multiple weapon types on a single row (we have 5 now) while trying to show 18 * (# of weapon skills) checkmarks per weapon. --Ichthyos 18:46, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I figured we were only listing the jobs that get the actual skill, so we wouldn't list WHM under Dagger, and other such things, cause they don't "get" any of the WS, only from subs. --Chrisjander 19:50, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I really don't fully understand how this should look. I'm not even sure that the axe example above is correct. I think we are onto something, but not sure how best to show it (if not above it). --Gahoo 20:04, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I personally like the check system, although the inclusion of the required skill level is a nice touch too. --Chrisjander 20:09, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I think the checkmarks are misleading--a RNG (or any job for that matter) will be able to use Spinning Axe with /WAR (or /DRK or /BST). And Chris, you're right--if we keep the individual job columns, then we should only list the jobs that get the skill. I'll make a quick mockup of what I envisioned without the job columns and we can compare. ^^ --Ichthyos 20:25, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

Ok, here's the mockup without job columns. First of all, the SP/EX nomenclature is moot--we can replace that with something else if everyone dislikes it. Maybe a yellow and a red dot or something. It's probably worth at least mentioning the SP/EX naming, though, since other sites/guides use it.

If you view the table with the intention of finding out whether your job can use certain weapon skills, just look at the weapon skills. If they have no job restriction afterward, then you can use it. If they have an EX restriction (yellow dot?) then you need a certain sub, as listed at the top. If they have an SP restriction then you need to be in the SP list to use it.

I welcome comments/suggestions~ ^^ --Ichthyos 21:01, 29 August 2006 (EDT)

I like the style table I started with better than this one (the one with the green/yellow circles is sweet). I like seeing the jobs laid out, even if it makes the table long because 10 jobs have a skill with a particular type of weapon. It can be worked out. Also, I'd say the skill number should have it's own column for the sake of neatness. --Ganiman 07:54, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

IMHO this one is the way to go --Ganiman 08:03, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

Lol.. what have I started.. The visual one looks better, but when it comes to dagger or sword it will be very large, the other is not quite as visual, but gets the job done, dunno, its a toss up, if you can make the visual one to fit in the page so it looks good with all the others go for it I say. --SephirothYuyX 09:40, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

I tried this on Daggers in two ways: 

I am still a bit torn between this and Ichthyos' type. I like Gani's chart better I think, but I am concerned that while it seems to have more information, it is actually less accurate.--Gahoo 09:46, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

I like visual aspects of Gani's Chart but the inaccuracy of it isnt that thrilling... Anyway to change it so it is more accurate but still looks that cool? --Nynaeve 09:47, 30 August 2006 (EDT)

If I am a level 75 BRD/WHM (with max axe skill from previously leveling BST for example), and equip a rune axe. What is my axe skill? What WS's do I have? --Gahoo 09:51, 30 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Your axe skill is zero. You shouldn't be in the chart --Ganiman 15:31, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

ummm... how do you figure the chart is inaccurate? Explain please, because I see nothing inaccurate about it, unless I added a wrong job, or missed a job, but that would be me, not the design of the table. It clearly shows which jobs can use which weaponskills at what levels. Period. There is nothing else to say about it. And the dagger chart with the design I started looks beautiful. It's not even that big as people feared. IMHO it's very easy to see who can use what. The only thing that might clean it up a little more is alternating column colors. --Ganiman 15:08, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I think the "inaccuracy" is what I was questioning above. The BRD/WHM looking at the / chart could be led to believe that it cannot use any weapon skills. My question above is basically whether this is correct? Does this combo have access to all WS other than the EX/SP ones ID'd on Ichthyos' chart up to whatever skill cap a BRD/WHM would have? Or does it have zero axe skill and no access to any axe WSs? --Gahoo 15:15, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Bards can equip the Rune Axe? If so, your skill will be zero, and you will have no WS. Neither Bard nor WHM get the axe skill. --Chrisjander 15:17, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * They can. If this is the case then I think the Gani-chart is accurate. --Gahoo 15:18, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * A better example might be BST/WHM (common combination) using hand-to-hand weapons (BST can equip a lot of them but has 0 skill). --Gahoo 15:20, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * This doesn't make the chart inaccurate at all. A BRD might be able to equip the Rune Axe, but will never gain access to Rampage.  A BRD/WHM using an Axe won't have any WS, and shouldn't be listed, so how is the chart inaccurate? --Ganiman 15:26, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Ok, so you're talking about a person with the job combo of BRD/WHM looking at the axe chart and asking themselves if they can use any axe weaponskills? No, they can't.  They can't even equip an axe.  A better question would be, does the RDM/BLM who can equip level 51 elemental staves get any staff weaponskills?  Yes, but only because of the BLM sub job.  If that RDM subs NIN instead, he will still be able to equip a staff but lose access to any weaponskills.  Thus, the RDM should not be shown in the staff chart.  These charts should only display the jobs that natively get the skill.  Learning this subject requires a certain level of FFXI eduction on each player, and I don't think it's the place of a weaponskill chart to teach the tricks of something like... how an RDM would gain access to Vorpal Blade.  RDM certainly has high enough skill to use the weaponskill, but must sub WAR, DRK or BLU.  I think those types of details or whatever should be left to the specific page of that weaponskill, and not on the charts here.  This page should be used more as a quick reference, and each individual weaponskill article should be used for all the details pertaining to that weaponskill. --Ganiman 15:23, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * As for the BRDs using Rune Axe... RDM can use all kinds of Hand to Hand weapons and have no native H2H skill. RDM can use numerous staves and have no native staff skill.  They should not be listed in these charts for that simple fact.  If RDM subs MNK, they will only have half the skill and only be able to use a limited amount of H2H weaponskills.  This shouldn't even be a question. --Ganiman 15:23, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Well, there's your answer, the availability of WS is based on your main job's skill level, and your main and sub job's WS availability. --Chrisjander 15:23, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I agree with Ganiman, if the main job does not get the skill, it has no native WS availability and must rely on a sub for both skill and WSs. --Chrisjander 15:24, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I like the / chart also. Just trying to understand the perceived inaccuracy. Based on the above information I do not see any inaccuracies and have no problem with the / chart. If there are any changes to the chart do them now in case I get the urge to make these changes. --Gahoo 15:36, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * I just thing the header box where "Daggers" is should be the lighter orangy-whatever color, and each column should alternate between light and dark colors so it's easy to follow the job down a column. Other than that, I'm really happy with the /, and I like the ● icon better because it's text and not an image, thus saving a wee bit of bandwidth on ever page load. --Ganiman 15:40, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I concur, after a light/dark addition with the columns, I think it should be implemented. --Chrisjander 15:44, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Just playing around with the colors. Thoughts? I don't really like the pink, but thought the blue blended in too much with the job columns. --Gahoo 15:53, 31 August 2006 (EDT)


 * The blues are good in the columns, and I can deal with the pink for all the weaponskills because those colors are already used elsewhere in the wiki.. but you're playing with the wrong table. --Ganiman 16:01, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * You like the bigger Dagger table?? --Gahoo 16:05, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Definatly. It's not *that* much bigger and it's so much cleaner with the way the jobs are listed on top.  I'd sacrifice that itty bitty amount of space for a cleaner looking table. --Ganiman 16:08, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * The advantage of the smaller one is that (I think) all weapons will have 4 columns so they will all be the same size. --Gahoo 16:10, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * IMHO I think the jobs crammed in a single cell looks really messy --Ganiman 16:15, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * FYI - I don't care too much - have to see how it all looks on one page anyway before you can really see how it all looks together. --Gahoo 16:13, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Actually ... I've been following this debate and really had nothing to add. I agreed with where it was going ... but not this. There is nothing I hate more than the alternating color schemes. We have it on weapons lists, mob lists and so on ... it's a pain in the rear when something needs to be added in the middle. Then ALL the items listed below it need to be switched too. If there were someway to automate the change, that is one thing, but because the wiki isn't set up to accomate such thing, I'm going to have to disagree with any decisions to alternate colors in lists.

In fact, as it is currently, anytime I have to *add* something to an existing alternating list ... I take out the alternating completely. Please do not have these lists alternate colors. --Mierin 16:24, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Valid arguement... but... weaponskills never change. When was the last time you saw them add a new weaponskill?  Of all the things that I can see the pain of having to insert a row in the middle and fix all the other colors, this is not one of them.  This won't change. --Ganiman 16:27, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * If the alternating is in columns (as above) it will change with new jobs. If it alternates in rows then it will only change with new skills. --Gahoo 16:29, 31 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Yes, I just thought that new jobs would change this... but I think it's so worth it. --Ganiman 16:31, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Holy mother of God... This is what I get for not paying attention to what I type... I mistyped when I said "inaccuracy" I must have been looking at Gahoos comments above and been sleepy... Gah! >.<' I like Gani's Tables as I said before... Im on crack lately, I swear... I think changin to these cute little circle tables would be a good idea... I like them better than the previous current... /cry --Nynaeve 17:13, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Mock-up
See /mockup. These are complex tables. Trying to get a full page layout first. Maybe someone will have better luck laying these out and then we can fill in the boxes.

Representing EX/SP with Colored Dots
I think that if we use colored dots, we should follow a scheme I'll outline below. Basically, weapon skills fall into three categories:


 * 1) Those that you can use regardless of what job you are on, as long as you have learned the weapon skill.
 * 2) Those that you can use only if you have certain main or sub jobs currently active (called "EX" on other sites).
 * 3) Those that you can use only if you have certain main jobs active (called "SP" on other sites).

With green, yellow, and red colored dots, I believe we can represent these in the following manner, respectively (numbers correspond to the groups of weaponskills I just described):


 * 1) Green all the way across, signifying that all jobs can use it.
 * 2) Green on the "EX" group jobs, yellow on the other jobs (signifying that you must have a certain sub to use it).
 * 3) Green on the "SP" group jobs, red on the other jobs (signifying that they cannot use it).

I still think that making columns for each job for each weapon skill will be a bit clunky, but this at least removes the inaccuracies above (RNG/WAR being able to use Spinning Axe). --Ichthyos 17:47, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I'm not sure I agree with three types, it seems there are only two to me. Those that you must have the job as your main job to get, and those that are available to anyone who has the requisite skill and subs the appropriate subjob for. ''On a side note, I think you mixed up EX and SP, either that or the people who originally came up with the idea (not you) are completely... SP.''

That being said, I don't think there are any WS that you can use regardless of what job you are on as long as you have learned the skill. Its either option 2 or 3 on the first list, never 1 (as they are superceded by 2 and 3). I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though, so please give an good example of 1 that isn't covered by 2 or 3, because I'm stuck trying to think what that actually means. (confused) --Chrisjander 18:15, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

Since we've been using Axe, I'll stick to that:


 * 1) Raging Axe. Usable by any job on which you have the requisite skill.
 * 2) Spinning Axe. Marked "EX" on other sites. You can use it if you have WAR, DRK, or BST set as your main or sub. So RNG/WAR can use it but RNG/NIN cannot.
 * 3) Mistral Axe. Marked "SP on other sites. You can use it only if you have WAR or BST as your main. RNG cannot use it regardless of sub.


 * I wrote, Those that you can use regardless of what job you are on, as long as you have learned the weapon skill.
 * Chris wrote, That being said, I don't think there are any WS that you can use regardless of what job you are on as long as you have learned the skill.

Sorry, I meant to imply that you have to have the skill. I was talking about the columns of jobs that we would display, and somewhere above someone said that we wouldn't display all columns for all weapons--only the columns for jobs that have the skill. --Ichthyos 18:27, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

What I'm saying is, that goes with #2, the only way you can have the "requisite skill" is if your main job or sub job gives it to you. If your main job gives it to you, then you either get the skill or you don't. If your sub gives you the skill, then your sub either gets that WS or it doesn't.  Do you see where I am comming from? All the examples I've seen are falling under #2 or #3. I think its as simple as:


 * 1) There are WS that you can use on this job if you have the requisite skill, or if you sub this job, and have the requisite skill.
 * 2) There are WS that you can only use when this job is your main job, and you have the requisite skill.

Number 1 covers all the green dots, which, if you don't get on your main job, you can get by subbing a job with the green dot. Number 2 covers WS that are job specific, like Hexastrike. Does this dynamic seem to cover all instances? --Chrisjander 18:44, 31 August 2006 (EDT)


 * Yeah, I just didn't realize that the intention was that if you were RNG/WAR that you were supposed to look down both columns in order to determine which WS's you had access to. The 3-category (3-color, or normal/EX/SP) notation was supposed to make it so that you don't have to look in two columns. To me, it's a little more intuitive (probably because I've been thinking about WS's as normal/EX/SP for years) but if the other way makes sense to everyone then that's cool. --Ichthyos 12:51, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

Also I think we are hung up on some unique examples. If the "EX" skill is level 100 or less, then any job with a "green dot" sub will be able to use the WS. For example, my understanding is that a SMN/MNK can use One Inch Punch at level 66 (because a MNK level 33 will have 100+ Hand-to-Hand skill. The SMN job is irrelevant to this.  The MNK job is the only one that matters.  It's the same for RNG/WAR and Spinning Axe.  RNG has nothing to do with the weapon skill.  It just so happens that because Spinning Axe is 150 skill, it cannot be acquired by sub skill alone, so only a RNG/xxx would be able to get access - but that is a function of the fact that only 4 jobs get axe skill and that the EX skill in question is lvl 150.  While this does get a bit confusing, the more I think about it I believe that the two colors and above charts are correct and fully accurate.  In order to fully answer the question "What skills will I have available?" you will need to look at both the you job's column and your subjob's column.  If there is a green dot in either one, and you have the skill level in your chosen job combo, you'll have the skill. --Gahoo 18:29, 31 August 2006 (EDT) NOTE: Haven't read Ichthyos's yet - conflicted post.

Ah, I see. Somehow I missed that the intention was to have someone to look down both his main and sub jobs' columns to determine whether he can use a WS. I was posting under the impression that you would only look down the column of your current main job to see what WS's may or may not be accessible to you. To me, putting a "-" instead of some kind of colored circle in the RNG column for Spinning Axe led me to believe the chart was indicating that RNG could not use the WS. --Ichthyos 18:57, 31 August 2006 (EDT)

I'd like to point out that there are references like "other sites do it this way". I just want to remind folks that FFXIclopedia is not "other sites" and does not need to follow what they have done. I always feel that we can do better than "other sites" --Ganiman 09:24, 1 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I agree that conformity just for the sake of conformity is never a good thing, but to me the 3-category (3-color or normal/EX/SP) way seemed like the most straightforward way to depict them because that's how I've been thinking of weapon skills for almost 3 years, hehe. --Ichthyos 12:51, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

/mockup2
Ninja use Great Katanas? So, don't they get access to higher WS than what is indicated on the chart for GK? --Chrisjander 13:48, 1 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Tachi: Yukikaze and Tachi: Gekko are SAM only according to their pages. Also Gekko is level 225 and NIN cap out at 220.  Tachi: Kasha is level 250 and NIN only get to 220.  NIN do not get access to relic so Tachi: Kaiten is out.  --Gahoo 14:01, 1 September 2006 (EDT)

OK. This is done - would need to be integrated into a larger table obviously. Please take a look. This is a bit different from the EX/SP notation. It focuses on what you can get as a main and what you can get as a sub. Most notations are as expected - but there are some oddities - for example:


 * Category 1: WSs which are skill >115 skill and are otherwise available to all skilled jobs (i.e. there is a dot in every column).  So Rampage Skullbreaker and True Strike fall into this category for example.  You simply cannot get this skill without a skilled job as your main because the cap exceeds any cap at 37).
 * Note that where the skill is not otherwise available to all, the other skilled jobs can get access via the green dot sub (i.e. Sidewinder or Spinning Axe.


 * Category 2: WSs which are skill 100 and are otherwise available to all skilled jobs (i.e. there is a dot in every column), but where one of the skilled jobs is rated E or F. Backhand Blow, Leg Sweep, Nightmare Scythe and Shining Blade are in this category.  You cannot get the skill with the E or F rated job as a sub because their skill will be under 100 even at level 37.  You can only get the skill with this job as a main.
 * Note that those A-C skilled jobs can be used as subs and are therefore green. For example a a BST/WAR can use Backhand Blow at level 75 because the WAR sub gives a H2H skill of 101 at level 37.
 * Note that with certain weapons no job has E or F and therefore all dots are green for the level 100 skill (i.e. Clubs or Great Swords).


 * Category 3: Quested WSs. Because of skill levels you will need to have main job who can quest the skill to use it.


 * Category 4: Relic WSs. Because of weapons requirements you will need to have appropriate main job to use it.

Weapon skill waring
I wrote to all the quested WS's a small sentence: why a sentence, because for some people its not enough. There is always the discussion here and there, can a job e.g brd use savage blade with 240+ sword skill, even if u write pld, rdm .. only thats not enough before u not defiantly say, no u cant get it why..., so please dont overwrite it with just a short term job only, because the discussion will never ends then.

Aka when u implement the new layout, remember my sentences, e.g. tachi kasha: even if the nin could get 250 + skill, he can never use it. only the jobs can use the quested skill, that can also wield the trial weapon there is no exeption. they are all SP

/mockup3
I don't really like how this looks but I can't get it to look any better. Maybe someone else will have better results. --Gahoo 16:16, 5 September 2006 (EDT)