Template talk:Armor

Update
I am not a major adder of items, but in case this matters, with the wiki upgrade, templates within templates now works just fine. So for example (most complicated one I could find):

That's great! I didn't know the site had been upgraded... that explains the slight change in the look of the site.

Anyways, I'd love to start using these if everyone else agrees.

~ Karuberu 10:39, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Fixed some of the interior links to make it look the way it should. The only thing I shirk from this is getting all the new users I just managed to help learn the current Item Template, to be able to use this one. This one will be much harder for me to teach people how to use from the beginning and might discourage them and cause more problems by doing it wrong or not at all. I mean, so many people right now can't even grasp the current simple template, can you imagine how it will be when you throw something more squished and complicated at them. I shudder to think, esp since its usually me that goes through all the Recent Changes and fixes all the mistakes made my new and old people, and helps them do it right next time. Its something I have been thinking over more and more since the increase in new members in reference to this template. While it is a great thing, I just don't think the support will be there to change every page to this. 6 people can't change the whole site, it take the entire mass and if the mass group can't do it, than their is no point. --Nynaeve 10:42, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

As you know my main goal is getting items added. I don't mind if this is used for some pages and not for others right now. But the use of this should be on pages that need entering - and not on simply updating existing pages that already conform to the Item Template. I view this as simply an option - not as a mass project to conform every item to this template so that we can make mass changes later. If some view this as easier than so be it. --Gahoo 10:47, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I agree that this would be good on new pages. I am just hoping that it doesn't get complicated and messy and I hope I don't have to clean up after new people more than I already do. Its not that I have little faith in our new members, its just that I have seen many of them not be able to grasp the simplicity of our current one. We have many people that do, which could mean A) Since they are obviously compentent, they might be able to pick up this one as well or B) It will add more confusion and force them to learn over again and might not adjust well to the change. I edited my comment above to further show what I feel on this. I want Items Updated and added that aren't already and I am afraid that changing this now and forcing new people to do this will cause more distress than aid. --Nynaeve 10:52, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

How about we take it for a "trial run" on new pages/pages that need info. If people don't have too much trouble with it, then we can consider switching over to it, and if they do, then we can just remove it from the pages and use the simple format.

~ Karuberu 11:00, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

The problem with that idea is making sure people know that the Item Template Statistics Section has changed. Too Many People already don't come to the Item Template to get what they need to update pages. Too many people already just copy off of other pages and go from there, which isn't what they should be doing, but no matter how much nudging, you can't make someone do something they don't want to do. Even if it is just me, you, Chris, prolly Tsakiki & Daniel that use this, it doesn't cover all the other people that won't and still update. I want to hear what some of the newer people have to say about this before we put anything into effect. Like Tsakiki, Chrisjander, Waluigi, Daniel, Pinkfae, Enfield, Ichthyos, Nesomir, Joon & Skenter4. What do they have to say about this, do they think they can adjust to this. They are some of the major contributers to this site at this time and in the past few months. I want to know what they think, what they think will be better in general. If people can handle this and the general census is yes, go ahead, then we should do it, but I am going to post of each of these guys Talk pages and see if I can get them to post their thoughts. This is a major change, and if the major contributers can agree, I want to go for it. But just your opinion, you who doesn't edit nearly as much as them or me (correctly even), we can't go ahead and change this based on your opinion. Sorry. --Nynaeve 11:13, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I posted on each of the above User Talk Pages and Ganiman's as well. I also posted on the Forums. Hopefully we should be hearing from some people soon. --Nynaeve 11:30, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I like the concept. I'll try it out on some short pages if I get a chance this afternoon and see how much trouble it gives me and comment again. I've gotten so used to the current statistics section that I'm concerned I'll have a big learning curve on this, especially when it comes to getting job orders correct and things like charged gear, but the example here is good. --Tsakiki 11:33, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Actually I think the template probably needs a separate section for changed gear. The way I did it above is rather unwieldy. --Gahoo 11:36, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

It's nice... looks like a copy of what I did a while back. Putting a bunch of &nbsp in it makes it look ugly. I'd rather have the charges aligned on the left than use that messy code, so I pulled it out of the example above. It can probably be cleaned up more and made a little easier to use. You don't have to cram a template all on one line, you can make it so the code for it is entered one line per variable and it would look easier to use for non-wiki-saavy people. If I get some time I'll try to work on it.

Here's the coding:

My honest opinon is that it might be too complicated for some users. There are other ways to do this that doesn't require that much code work. It also doesn't include all of the other information on the current template such as how to obtain, how to craft, etc. I like it, but think it might be too advance for some editors.--Pinkfae 11:55, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

It would only be used in the statistics section. --Gahoo 11:57, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Tsoo Haja's Headgear page fleshed out as a discussion aid. --Gahoo 12:01, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Even only used in the Statistics section, it might take away from some of the users that we have that only edit the statistics section because its easy and requires really no complicated coding. That is my main concern with this. While it is very nice. The ability of general users ability to use it will be cut short from what I have seen so far. --Nynaeve 12:06, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Now that I understand it is just for the one section, I like it. I still think that it might be complicated for some people. Maybe we should have someone that could look over all changes to verify they are done correctly. It will also be a huge project to change all of the items to this new format as well. --Pinkfae 12:13, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I'm pretty much in agreement with what Nynaeve has said. I do like how it looks, but there are some things to consider. First of all is its ease of use. Just looking at the straight template code, it's not clear what information belongs where. I was messing around with it earlier, and it's not very tolerant of small syntactic errors. Nynaeve had mentioned how it might be harder for new members. She would have more insight on how hard it is for them to pick up the existing template and how this might change things. Another thing is the layout. It makes the statistics section bigger than it is now, and it has a tendancy to dominate the content if you make the window smaller than 1024x768. However, I think we should use this template in new pages to see how it works out. We shouldn't go back and edit exising pages to use it, at least until we know we want to keep it.

As an aside on the item template issues, I've been working on a project to make template-abiding pages much easier, which is why I haven't been as active on the wiki recently. --Enfield 12:19, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

My opinion would be that it does look good, but if we have an image of the item on the page, does it really matter if it has a box around it and such? I'm of the opinion that it does not. I do like the current item template in that it closely mimics the layout of the item in game. This puts the information at least in the same order but not the same alignment. I don't know that it will really buy us much added value. That being said, I am willing to give it a shot if that's what is decided. might want to keep in mind Enfield's comments about different screen sizes. We definitly dont want it to be the dominating force on each page.Nesomir 12:28, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I like what you have done-- It is very nice, but I believe that this would be overcomplicating an already complicated proccess. A lot of people are failing to conform to the current Item Template as it is. I am, however, happy with people using it if they want to-- I don't mind that at all. But do I think it should be made a standard proccess, or placed in the current item template over the existing information? I don't. I believe it should be use by those who choose to do so (If they find it easier.) The boxing around the template looks nice in the example. I'm not particulary fond of the way it looks when placed in the actual item template though. --Daniel 12:40, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Talk:Tsoo Haja's Headgear page fleshed out as a discussion aid - this is the current template. --Gahoo 12:47, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Hmmm, after comparing Tsoo Haja's Headgear and Talk:Tsoo Haja's Headgear... I actually like it. It does seem to make it a little clearer. As I said though, I think this is a "If you want to, then do it" sort of situation. --Daniel 12:51, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I just want to bring up that we can also add the little icons next to it we want (I left the slot for it open). This would add a little something extra the template could have over the simple method. Hmm... I had a battle gloves example, but the icon has been deleted, so I'm not going to bring it back.

Oh, and Pinkfae, if you want to see the full-page template, look in the history. I originally created this as an experiment for a full-page template, but it was just too complex (and had some other minor problems), so I reduced it to a statistics-only template.

EDIT: Oh, I forgot one thing: When I had the icons as a mandatory part of the template (there was a big space if you left it out), you didn't have to worry about using breaks when entering information (it would automatically wrap to the next line after the 6th job on a line, for example).

~ Karuberu 13:01, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Added example with image back up top. --Gahoo 13:13, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I think it looks good, bit I still don't really see it as a necessary addition for the complexity of editing it induces. What is going to be the added value of having, basically, a wiki formatted copy of the item in addition to a screenshot of the item? I think that is the fundemental question right now.Nesomir 13:30, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Added an icon for the headgear, just testing hehe.

Nice work with the template! I definitely like the way it looks, but I understand Nynaeve's concerns with new members learning to use it. As with any wiki changes will take place gradually. I feel that the improved look is worth the extra effort required to learn how to use it. Maybe we could write up a short guide for new users with guidelines to follow when creating item pages and how to use the armor template. --Ichthyos 13:29, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

When using the template, can you wrap the code so that it looks almost like the same old format? Like you can with certain parts of table code. --Chrisjander 13:32, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Other than looks, the only value that I see is of being able to make template-based changes. If we want to change the background color to a shade other than white we can do so across the board. --Gahoo 13:32, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Yellow - for temporary example only. Note it is automatically changed in both examples here and on the Tsoo Haja's Headgear page. --Gahoo 13:34, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Nesomir: Some people's internet are slow (56k modems etc) and so sometimes these people disable pictures on sites. This will provide a nice text visual. --Chrisjander 13:33, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Fair enough. My point though, was that the existing template presents the same information, just in a different alignment. Alos, if we are concerned with doing these because people disable pictures, wouldnt they be unable to see the elemental icons, or the thumbnail image either? I'm totally on board with learning these, i'm just kindof playing devil's advocate to make sure we think this through since a global change is going to require a -lot- of work. --Nesomir 13:39, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

That yellow is GD ugly, the least you could have done was do an example with something less pukish. =P To sum things up: This Template is a good idea, but there are a few problems:
 * The people that have gotten so used to the current statistics section might have big learning curve on this.
 * It's not clear what information belongs where when looking at it.
 * It's not very tolerant of small syntactic errors.
 * In general it is overcomplicating an already complicated proccess. A lot of people are failing to conform to the current Item Template as it is, this will def. make it harder for newer members to pick up on how to do it and help due to its increased complexity.
 * It makes the statistics section bigger than it is now, and it has a tendancy to dominate the content if you make the window smaller than 1024x768.
 * The little icon that Karuberu put in pushes it over even further and is unneccessary and adds more pictures that need to be uploaded and takes away from the simple just adding an item in. Now you would need to have that little picture in order to add said item in otherwise it would be incomplete.
 * Other than looks, the only value to this compared to the current way is of being able to make template-based changes. AKA: If we want to change the background color to a shade other than white we can do so across the board.
 * What I have to say to this is: When we change the color, we can't change the color of the shading behind the Resist Icons and such so it looks kind of crappy with it all one background color with lil shades of white behind those icons. So it doesn't look appealing or very nice with color behind it, IMO. Speaking of which, again, that yellow is really hideous.

I suppose my Opinion after reading all this and after thinking it all over is that this will be a lot of work to do for just one part of one template: First you will be needing to make a guide on how to do just the statistics section; Then the current huge editors need to learn how to use it properly, which wont be simple; then you need to teach new members the regular coding for the site and then also how to do this Template because its different then everything else and even after reading said guide, its doubtful that they won't make mistakes, (I can already imagine the fustration and the people giving up when trying to figure this template out); And then after all the grumbling and the fixing the errors that people make when trying to figure out how to do this correctly, we have to put this template into play on the whole site... It wont be good for us to start being even less consistant than we already are. Consistancy is important, ascethically and practically. After giving it much thought, I am against this change as a whole. Everyone says its nice, and they all say they will use it if we all decide to but no one has firmly said hey this is great and doesnt have faults. Nearly everyone agrees that it isn't perfect, its ideally nice but when put into practice... its not as great as you would like. And since i am usually the person that makes those small corrections to the edits and I am the one that takes it upon myself to help newer members learn how to do everything correctly, I vote against this. I think it will be much to fustrating for not enough of a benefit. If the problems above could be resolved, such as putting a better order to the template to make it easier to understand and to learn to do; making it smaller so it doesnt take up the a big portion of a smaller page (which is what i use btw); take out the unneccesary icons on the sides that make it more complicated than it already is; taking out that ugly yellow =P; I might be more inclined to change my opinion, but I do help the newer members and I do correct the minor formatting changes, so I know all that I normally have to do and while this is pretty, I don't this the benefits of this counter the problems. --Nynaeve 14:21, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
 * The template adds the category automatically. ^^ --Pinkfae 14:33, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

EDIT:: Also, seeing it used on the Noble's Mitts & Aristocrat's Mitts, it doesn't look that great so the only other benefit just got taken away. It looks so plain and I don't like how it seperates the name from the rest of the Template. EDIT TO MY EDIT:: That looked mostly plain because someone didn't put the category link into the template... Tsk Tsk. Ugh. This is going to be so full of minor edits on my part if it goes through. --Nynaeve 14:26, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

I've tried it out on Noble's Mitts (and Aristocrat's Mitts), and it was pretty easy to use. It will just take a bit of adjustment, but the avid adders of items shouldn't have trouble adapting. I too am concerned about more inexperienced editors having a harder time picking up on subtleties, but overall it's a nice look (except for the hideous temporary yellow :-)). --Tsakiki 14:23, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Edit: It does really make the statistics part stick out from the rest of the page, and I'm not sure that's a good thing. I think I like it better on pages that have no image (Aristocrat's Mitts) than those that have them (Noble's Mitts). And already having Nynaeve go in to correct problems, it's probably going to be an annoying change. --Tsakiki 14:31, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Color
If we were going to add a background color, could we tune down on the brightness of the yellow? --Pinkfae 14:20, 9 August 2006 (EDT)
 * Removed - was just a demonstration. --Gahoo 14:21, 9 August 2006 (EDT)

Categories
Fixed category issue. This template should make things easier - if not then not worth it. --Gahoo 14:30, 9 August 2006 (EDT)