Template talk:Drop Rate

0/0
Could someone please add a special handler for 0/0, to note that drops have not yet been reported but that they should be? Thanks. --Alephnot 16:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean disclaimer note? I feel the current "low" disclaimer note pretty much covers it for 0/0. That and if you can't read 0/0 (0%) and see that no one has reported kills... they probably aren't going to interpret the information intelligently anyway. -- 18:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

No; I mean changing it from exactly what you showed: "0 / 0 (Division by zero%)". --Alephnot 19:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Lemme test around with it, add another condition for "total kills = 0". -- 19:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and leaving no parameters gives the (now) first bit. That was already there as part of the functionality. -- 19:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

TYVM --Alephnot 19:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Where to add
I've noticed on recent adds of this template that it has been put on for all drops of the mob. While this may be true information, for example I don't think people care how many times Rabbit Hide drops off of Jaggedy-Eared Jack. Most are only interested in the drop rates of Rabbit Charm. Do you think the drop rate info should go for what is considered the "rare" or sought out item(s) of the mob?

Another idea I had, I don't think the rate info should be calculated on the main layout of the article. It is ok to be on the main page of the article but there should be a separate table off to the side with the 'rare' drops listed and the calculated drop rates. Therefore the original layout explaining the mob details and all of it's drops is preserved, then the 'additional info' can be viewed off to the side, similar to how additional notes are done under the main infobox. What do you think? -- 17:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it fits well in the drops area. The template adapts itself once the values reach an acceptable level of accuracy. As for the other drops, why not list them? While most people wouldn't care, it's still info. The template could even be used to monitor regular mob drop rates (though with dedicated farmers reporting info, the acceptable level of total kills can be reached pretty quickly). I don't think there's a need to complain about reporting too much information, when it takes up so little space (and makes all the drops look the same in format). -- 17:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

With the few updates to some pages it is looking better now. Let's just hope that people make sure they report accurately and they update all items and not just one, meaning that if JEJ drops a Rabbit Charm but not a Rabbit Hide on one kill, they need to update the 'total kills' for both drops and not just the Rabbit Charm. -- 22:51, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Basically that's what I'm hoping for. But if they don't, I'm not going to cry over it. Accuracy is still determined by total kills, so if the total kills for the hide are low, but the charm is high, the charm drop rate is more accurate. In the end, it's easier when the total kill number is the same on all the items, but the accuracy isn't affected. --Team BLU Squad 22:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, what BLU said. Accuracy won't be hurt by it, but it's still good to have. It's when the potential data gets lost on mobs that have more than one unique drop that makes me wince. -- 22:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

"Unacceptable" accuracy
I think maybe we should change the display for reported kills under 100. Seems people are misinterpreting how we're using the template. Perhaps it should just display that we're gathering data, and to please add data to the tally. Then once it reaches 100+, it will then start displaying a relatively accurate percentage. Thoughts? -- 21:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking thinking the same thing. I think if there's less than 100 kills, the the drop should either display some sort of "Information Needed" symbol (perhaps a unique one?), with appropriate hovertext and the drop/kill ratio, or simply not show anything. At 100 kills, I think the drop rate % should show up in gray, with a brief hovertext disclaimer and the drop/kill ratio and at 500 kills, the drop rate should appears as normal, with simple or no hovertext. That way, it should be a little less confusing/misleading and give it a cleaner look. ~ Karuberu 00:45, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I mocked up our existing code in my sandbox, made a few changes. I think it works well. Take a look at how different values are displayed in User talk:Chrisjander/Sandbox. You'll notice the one with only 3 kills, while it does still display the percentage, clearly states that it's inaccurate in both the message displayed and the hovertext. Also, the hovertext is now more specific as to how inaccurate it is. The rest of the code is unchanged. I suppose we could also have it get rid of the percent for that, but I kind of like it there anyway, and it would require alot more messing around with the code. -- 00:58, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Karuberu/Template Sandbox shows what I was thinking of (examples are on the talk page). The "Information Needed" icon is only temporary; it would need to be replaced with a unique icon so people don't get confused. I kinda like the "More Data Needed" text in your template, but it may take up too much space when used on monster pages (or cause some confusion like the "Information Needed" icon). ~ Karuberu 01:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it takes up much more room than "??? / ??? (???%) [i]", and I think it's a bit more obvious as to its intent. An icon, even if it's a new one, won't necessarily help. If people aren't going to check the hovertext, then they won't check it for an image, and "More Data Needed" would be more self explanatory. -- 02:20, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I do like some of your messages better though. Perhaps for < 100 we can use "More Data Needed", as an incentive that this project needs attention. After that it can go to just the grayed percent, with the data displayed in hovertext. and then after 500+ the black text, though I think we should still employ the raw data gathered as part of the hovertext. -- 02:25, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps something like "" would work? I'd like it to be clear that the "More Data Needed" is for the drop rate and not for any information that may be next to the Drop Rate. ~ Karuberu 03:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

That works. Work it into your sandbox, since you have all the other messages programmed already, and we'll take a look. -- 03:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. I also made "0" have the same result as not entering anything, so that "Division by zero" error won't show up. ~ Karuberu 04:50, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, lets go with what you have now. -- 13:37, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Multiple Drops of the same item
If one kill drops multiple of the same item (even if the common drops) I think it should only be listed as one drop per kill. Listing multiple drops for one kill looks like it will skewer results. If you agree please list this in the help section. -- 03:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you mean? Example? -- 03:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Battering Ram always drops 3 Ram Skins, if you list 3 drops for one kill it will go greater than 100%. -- 03:15, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Well, with this example I can refute it entirely. It does not always drop 3, but it will so frequently drop multiples that it should be worth noting. The way to remedy this is to list it as a single item drop, and then record drops/kill (which if it normally drops multiples all the time, it will report a >100% drop rate, which would be accurate). I've had multiple drops of horns as well as skins, and sometimes only one skin, or none. But most of the time it will drop multiple skins. If we list the drop as "Ram Skin" instead of "Ram Skin (x3)", and list it as having a drop rate of 256%, then that would indicate that it normally drops multiples. -- 03:19, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

That, and we can set a fourth potential hovertext message, for values where it's "accurate" and above 100%. -- 03:21, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's necessary. If people don't understand that there's a high chance multiples will drop, they'll at least understand that it's an extrememly common drop. ~ Karuberu 13:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't think the "(x#)" notes would be so confusing to people, otherwise I would have never added them. They show the maximum amount of an item that can drop, which is a valuable peice of information for people that farm those items. Though it should probably be changed to something less confusing ("(up to #)" will work for now), I don't think that this data should be removed. With values over 100%, Drop Rate can show that more than one item can drop, but it won't show what the maximum is. ~ Karuberu 13:48, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Changing the display works. (max 3) instead of (x3) would reduce any confusion from Drop Rate. -- 14:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Dropped from table
Should we be adding Drop Rate to the "Dropped from" table as well (listed in the item article)? If so, where should it go? Perhaps a new column? I also started recording drops at User:Zenoxio/DropRate and I'll be adding them to the articles soon enough. --Zeno 06:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Keep it on the monster pages for now. Having the same drop rate data on multiple pages would make keeping them updated much more complicated. ~ Karuberu 13:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't Treasure Hunter skew results?
I don't know about whether or not Treasure Hunter really kicks in with NMs and such, but for monsters like rams, wouldn't Treasure Hunter seriously skew results? Using rams as an example, Non-THFs I've spoken with have said they'll get maybe 1-3 items on average from a ram, whereas THFs have said they get 5 items on average. I don't know how to address that issue. --Ivrai 14:57, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Skewed results aren't necessarily a bad thing. The data will reflect what's most commonly used when killing the mob; Most people use Treasure Hunter when farming, so drop rates on things like Rams will probably have drop rates leaning more towards the Treasure Hunter values than the "base values". As long as the user realizes this, the Drop Rate shown will still be fairly reliable. ~ Karuberu 20:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Applicable to HELMing and other activities?
Could we actually use this template to record HELMing and other hobby results as well? I think it'd be much better than relying on the current "Common" to "Very Rare" system for HELMing and chocobo digging. It should also work well for gardening. --Ivrai 16:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I've actually been working on something specifically for H.E.L.M. It still uses the abundance terms (Common, Uncommon, etc.), but provides a percentage as well. I'll put an example in my template sandbox sometime later today. ~ Karuberu 16:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Done. I pulled the range for the abundance terms off the top of my head, so they're probably a little off (they can be easily changed). ~ Karuberu 21:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know how to make templates, but I'd be eager to use it once I know what it's called. :o  --Ivrai 00:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If you need some numbers to work with to tweak the % ranges for the terms, I'll be putting up harvesting info from Bhaflau Thickets. Should be a decent source of data to get a general idea from.  (Decimals are rounded up.)
 * 634 items harvested
 * 111 (17.5%) Fresh Marjoram
 * 94 (14.8%) Mohbwa Grass
 * 94 (14.8%) Pephredo Hive Chips
 * 71 (11.2%) Imperial Tea Leaves
 * 70 (11.0%) Coffee Cherries
 * 65 (10.3%) Simsim
 * 40 ( 6.3%) Red Moko Grass
 * 39 ( 6.2%) Eggplants
 * 24 ( 3.8%) Wijnruits
 * 26 ( 4.1%) Fresh Mugwort
 * All of this came from 3 stacks of sickles. I think it's starting to look solid.  But I wouldn't fully count on it yet.  --Ivrai 21:00, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I updated my mock template based on that data (I don't know what I was thinking with the old rarity numbers; they were way off) and moved it to Abundance. It may need some more fiddling to get the rarity ranges just right, but other than that, it's ready to be used (if noone objects to it). ~ Karuberu 21:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Used it on the Bhaflau Thickets Harvesting section. The entire page itself has some formatting issues, I think, but the harvesting section itself looks pretty good.  I'll continue updating info as I harvest in the future, and I'll let you know if I think it needs some more tweaking.  --Ivrai 21:53, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Hover mouse cursor here? browser issues?
I just noticed the "Hover mouse cursor here" thing. But I don't see anything when I comply. Would that be because I'm using Firefox? --Ivrai 23:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)


 * It works on Firefox, it's probably just being tricky. Hovertext doesn't always work for me, either. ~ Karuberu 01:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

On a related note, I really don't like the "Hover mouse cursor here" thing. The Drop Rate is just a supplement to the page, it shouldn't draw too much attention to itself. If "More data needed" doesn't get the point across, then perhaps we should have the drop rate appear as "???" until the acceptable level is reached (so noone gets the wrong idea). ~ Karuberu 01:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible to do the ??? thing and put "Approximately XX% drop rate - more data needed" in hovertext? -- 01:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It was a temporary thing. If you can think of something better, possibly with a link to the template page properly (which explains how to use the template properly), then by all means fix it. -- 01:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Changed it. I like the idea of linking to the template, but I couldn't find a way to do the link without it looking odd. ~ Karuberu 02:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Made "More Data Needed" into a link to Template:Drop Rate, so people can see how to edit them. That being done, I may want to protect this page, so people don't try to edit this template instead of the monster page. Thoughts? -- 06:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Probably a good idea, seeing as how many pages this is on now and that number will only continue to grow. -- 14:42, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Alright, I'm going to protect this template. If you need to make any changes Karuberu, just throw your alterations in a sandbox, put a message here, and one of us can copy and paste it in. I have this template on watch, so I should see it. -- 14:52, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

The link looks good there, but it's kind of out of place ("More data needed" linking to help). Perhaps something like "" instead? ~ Karuberu 20:48, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

How do you mean "out of place"? -- 19:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it says "More data needed," but it links to help on using the template. If someone clicked the link they would probably be expecting an answer to what the "More data needed" meant, but instead be instructed on the use of the template. It's true that they would probably find thier answer there, but the hovertext has a much clearer answer, so it'd be nice to have the hovertext on the "More data needed" and have the help link elsewhere. ~ Karuberu 20:49, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

100% drop items
Is it possible to add a variable for items that drop regardless, this edit made me think of this and that a syntax for 100% dropped items would be appropriate. -- 17:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Could always just do, but I someone fluent in this template could add a  vaiable where the hover text is more descriptive/accurate. -- 17:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I was going to give it a high number, but those unfamiliar with the template might be confused by it. Which is why I'm leaning to the latter half, except % might not work in the syntax. -- 17:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Use the code from my template sandbox; Displays "(100%)" with  (I didn't do anything fancy, since it's only a formatting thing). ~ Karuberu 20:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I just tried and broke it. :/ -- 20:56, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Copy & paste the whole page and it should work. The change you made didn't work because the  wasn't closed, so I'm guessing you just copied the first part. ~ Karuberu 21:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Got it. Thanks. -- 21:57, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

FFXI NM drop rate parse project
If nobody objects, I'm going to ask the admin of the project if he minds me using their data to help fill out drop rates on wiki NM pages. I don't think anyone will mind since scope is totally different.

The project is collecting data for the purpose of determining once and for all if elemental day level moonphase etc. effect drops rates in anyway, and we just want and average drop rate over all here right? Its mostly non NM drops, but that would give us sample sizes of several thousand on things like beehive chips and sheep skins. --1.quos.vita.habitum.captivus 23:22, 29 November 2007 (UTC)