FFXIclopedia:AfD Discussions/Limit Break Radio

Article for Deletion
Delete (Opening comment) Ok. While I enjoy the show you guys, really this stuff doesn't really belong here. It's a wiki for the game itself and this looks more or less like just an advertisement for the podcast. --Zero 23:46, 9 September 2006 (EDT)

Delete As much as I hate agreeting with Zero, but seeing as it does in fact happen from time to time I'll suck it up =P, I think this should be deleted as well. First off, the page isn't even capitalized... Second off, It sounds like an advertisement. While this is slightly relating to the game in the way it is a Radio to discuss stuff on the game - It isn't actually in the game, SE registered information, if we allow this one next we should be making pages for Somepage and Alla since they are also discussion/information boards. --Nynaeve 02:27, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Thanks for the vote of confedience Nynaeve. But that aside, we had a minor problem with the linkshell "Devil May Cry" having their own page. That was removed later of course, but as a general rule, if it's not in the game, it's not in the Wiki. --Zero 03:22, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment I'm only teasing Zero. heh. That AfD discussion was basically about Linkshells and their place on the Wiki. Now while it sort-of has reference, I think this still warrents a different discussion and shouldn't be lumped into the Article for Deletion - DevilsMayCry one. --Nynaeve 03:31, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment Sorry maybe I my understanding of the site is diffrent from what it is. I thought if it was related and supported the comminuty then it was acceptable to put up here. Now considering I put only a few tags on this bad boy it meant that I wasn't done here so don't call it an advertisement, but fine delete it, you're right, it's not directly in-game, so I guess does warrant deletion. BTW pardon my lack of Wiki skills I'm still learning design. HTML I can handle, but gimme a few weeks in sandbox mode and I'll be right as rain lol. Also, it should be noted that I resent and am offended to be put on the same level as alla or somepage. We have gone far out of our way and spent a lot of money to make sure our site is Ad-free and totally RMT-free! --Aniero 03:39, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment I am not trying to insinuate that you are RMT's or having anything to do with RMTs. On the other hand, what I was stating is that like Alla, which is an Informative site as well as a FFXI Discussion site and Somepage which is another informative site with discussion boards, you seem to be a site designed for FFXI discussion. Now if we make a page for you, a site that is FFXI discussion related website, we would have to allow the making of one for Alla & Somepage as well under the same pretenses - that they are sites that allow discussion of the game. Normally, we limit pages to this site as pages that have to do with the game, not talk outside the game. I am almost positive that almost every page here is relating to the Game in some manner or form that has to do with the actual playing/context of the game. And if you can find a page that isn't, feel free to tag it for Deletion under the same purpose as this one. --Nynaeve 04:05, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Here's one. --Zero 04:27, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment I see your point and I'm not questioning the call, I would run it diffrently but it's not my site, and I'm OK with that. And I get the point that you were trying to make yet I still resent the comparison despite the fact I understand what you're getting at. We both discuss the game, yes, but I see sites like somepage and alla as secondary vehicles for information and primary vehicles for making money through either subscription charges or whoreing of site space for RMT banners. I wanted to make that distinction even to the few people the read this. I guess my point is you could have at least made the compairson to legit sites. Sorry if it seems I'm being trivial or trite but I really feel strongly that sites like those shouldn't be supported despite the fact that it's difficult to find sites that are honest. --Aniero 04:31, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment: I completely understand and respect the fact that you are RMT free. Alla is run by Gil-Sellers and I personally hate it with a Passion and never go there anymore... Somepage on the otherhand only advertises it and I really don't harbor them any ill-will. Saying this, I am sorry you are offended by being compared to them but they were the two foremost in my mind. When I first started years ago, I used Alla until I learned how heinous it really was and then I started using Somepage. Once I saw my Fiancee editing here and then I started editing here as well, and since that fateful day, this is mostly what I use now. The other FFXI-sites I never really frequented due to their formatting or incorrect/lack of information so therefore, they didn't enter my mind when I put my argument down. Again, I am sorry and I will state for everyone to see that you and your site is a completely RMT free site and besides being a place to discuss FFXI, it has no other similarities to the above mention sites. --Nynaeve 04:46, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment If you're serious about not supporting sites like Alla, you might want to consider removing the link provided to their site in the page that Zero provided above. --Aniero 05:24, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment The link provided is a source link, the text surrounding it does not support it, it merely provides reasons why FFXIclopedia was originally created. There are appropriate times, and inappropriate times, to link to allakazham.  We try to limit these times to a minimum if possible, but if we must, we're not going to deny source information when applicable.  Not only is it wrong, its technically illegal on copywritten information (which we try to avoid taking from Alla).  In the About page, it is an appropriate link. --Chrisjander 11:31, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Keep As to the actual AfD, I'm tossed up. I can see the comparison to both other info sites, and to the linkshell pages. But at the same time, I'm not sure this qualifies for deletion. From their own admission, they're an advocate of RMT abstinence, so that puts them in line with our purpose. I think the real question is, should this site have pages for other FFXI resources? Effectively, if this page is allowed, what is to stop someone from adding a page detailing Somepage or Allakazham? Would allowing this article to be included make that a precident? Should we allow it with stipulations? I kind of like the personal feel of the intention of the podcasts, and I think it might be nice to point it out. Its a pretty unique medium for FFXI info, so its not like we're touting another website (assuming their Homepage is a descriptor page, and not another resource). I'm now leaning on the side of Keep, as I'm seeing this fall into more of a cross between resource, and articles like the FF soundtracks. --Chrisjander 12:36, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Delete: I feel this falls in the same category as linkshell pages, etc. The wiki has focused on in-game information so far. As far as the information here, Aniero, I don't think anyone would have issue if you had it in your user page instead. That's just my suggestion. --Enfield 12:51, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Keep I think the discussion about not having linkshells have their own pages on here is a different discussion and the fear was that every single linkshell was going to be posted here. I did support keeping linkshells up here as long as they were notable, but that is a different discussion. I think this wiki should be about the game FFXI, not just things that are part of the game. There are many articles here that is not about things found in the game, such as Vana'diel Tribune, News and Updates, singers and bands, and many others. I think we should keep this article since it is relevent about FFXI. I do think the article might need to be expanded upon. --Pinkfae 13:01, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment I would just like to comment that the Vana'diel Tribune, News and Updates information has all been taken directly from SE. It is official and informative information take from the source - The singers and bands for the record were made by you and I never commented on them because I figured, well this is information about the people that sing the songs that are found in the game and if for some unknown reason someone wanted to find out who sang what song in the game - then those should stay. But this isn't an official website sanctioned by SE... This isn't taken directly from the game, this is just some people that got together and made their own site and discuss FFXI. I really don't think this deserves its own page - I agree with Enfield on the reasoning that they can put it on their User Page... And the more I look at it the more I do view this is a similar light to the Linkshell Discussion, because also, if we allow this, any FFXI that creates a FFXI discussion page can make their own page here which they make not intend as an advertisement, but it is none-the-less otherwise, why not just keep it on your User Page? This site isn't a factual site and isn't a resource for FFXI - it is a discussion site and therefor shouldn't be given its own page no matter the good intentions behind the page. --Nynaeve 13:10, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Now wait just a second here, we may be discussion site but in my oppinion our site is much more on par with stuff like "[GM]Dave". We're discussion, yes, but we're also entertainment, so I think this warrants a diffrent discusiion. I do plan on expanding the article if allowed to keep it.As for the times to link alla, here's my take on it. Too many people already turn their haed and ignore the RMT and alla problem, linking garbage like that only perpetuates the problem. I understand what you mean Chrisjander about the legality of useing their information but there is a simple way to avoid that, don't use their information. Ignoring the problem won't make it go away--Aniero 13:59, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment First off, FFXIclopedia:About is the about page for this website Zero and will not have anything taken from it. This is our site so we can have an about page about it and regarding the link to Alla in it ~ we were openly saying how bad the link is when we linked it so it is fine. User discretion advised. Secondly, that brings up an entirely different point Aniero, even if you are on par with [GM]Dave that doesn't change anything. Being an entertainment site still doesn't make you a factual or direct-game relation that should have a page... If [GM]Dave came along saying - hey I want a FFXIclopedia page for my site... would we let him make one?? Sure he is entertaining, I read him and The Smithy Blog religiously, but I DO NOT think they warrant a site on here. They have their own Web-pages just as Linkshells do and all information regarding their own sites should be reserved for the person's user page. I really am going to have to stand firm on this. --Nynaeve 14:46, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment My stance on articles like this has always been on the notion of notability. If something that is not SE licensed then it ought to be notable by the general FFXI player population to be included here. I just don't aggree that just because it is not endursed by SE it shouldn't belong here. All of the guides should be removed if we believe that, since these are not endursed by SE and just one player's opinon or a collection of user's opinons (such as the Chocobo Raising Guide. --Pinkfae 15:24, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Yes but they are guides and are tagged as such - I do not see a Guide Tag on top of this page nor would I think it applicable to have it tagged as such. Plus, if you want to go the Notable Route - I have never heard of this page before and none of the people I have talked to on my server have either... And these are a bunch of long time players... So they really aren't that notable yet... And that brings me back to having it here would be an advertisement simply to bring more people to their site. --Nynaeve 15:30, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Hold on, when did I ever make a 'keep' post? I was never saying that [GM]Dave should have a page and he doesn't have one here, I was, again, making the distinction, I wasn't trying to make a case to 'keep' it, I've only been commenting in my defense. As I said, I understand why you have links to alla, I was just adding my 2 cents, not asking for anything to be changed. I'm simply saying if you're serious about not giving sites like alla promotion then don't link them, hell, don't even mention them. I see it as an issue of accountability. In my opinion if you're really serious about making sites like alla obsolete then don't even give them the time of day. As for notability, the site has been up since August 16'th, so not even a month, we've had several thousand unique visitors to the site. And for the record Nynaeve, I actually agree that we don't warrant our own page, I'm just engaging in duscussion--Aniero 15:36, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment I understand that you are not trying to form an argument to keep. I was simply rebutting to the people that were and my references was being made for purely a point of reference. I was not saying that you were saying that [GM]Dave should have his own page just saying that if we allowed this we would have to allow that as well... I'm sorry if there was any confusion on that.^^ --Nynaeve 20:05, 10 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment {Understood.} and agreed ^_^ --Aniero 21:32, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment I’m Kallo, one of the hosts of Limit Break Radio, and after reading the discussion I wanted to toss up my two cents. Firstly, I’ve so far agreed with everything stated on both sides of the arguments, and to tell you the truth if it wasn’t for my affiliation with Limit Break Radio, I’d probably tag this for deletion as well. However, I look at the whole ordeal in a different light. As a community both in-game and out of game we all strive for one central purpose, and that’s to make the overall experience of Vana’diel one to remember. Now, this may be through way of entertainment, such as [GM]Dave, or it could be through mass information and strategies about the game itself such this site. Or it could be a blend of the two, which we at Limit Break Radio would like to think we’re working toward. The overall point here is, it’s about the community, and it always should be. I’m not quite keen on the comment about a Talk Radio Show being compared to a Linkshell. Our show is about education the general populous on various in-game mechanics and situations, whereas Linkshells are most likely just looking to achieve popularity for greater gain as a group. There was almost mention in your discussion about what was originally intended for this site, and the fact that if you let one discussion-based site in, you’d have to let them all in. That’s also not true. From what I’ve gathered you’ve been looking at this entire situation in black and white. This being your site, you get to deem what is and isn’t relevant. I’ll admit that a previously-mentioned RMT-ran site as the moment is an extremely better resource as compared to out site. However, as this is your site, if you so chose to not mention this site based solely on the fact that they’re RMT-sponsored, regardless of how well informed they are, that’s entirely up to you. Its you’re website, therefore you make the rules, you decide who comes and goes. Just keep in mind, that sometimes rules needs revision. You also mention that we’re not endorsed by SE officially. Which brings up the question, would we be having this conversation if SqaureEnix had hired a couple guys and gals to do a pod cast before any of the other FFXI Podcasts popped up? Or, if I had come and searched here for Final Fantasy Podcast, would I see said pod cast listed? The way I’m seeing it, it comes down to two things. Are you simply looking to be an entirely independent site based solely on giving information of the games to players, as your primary objective. Or, are you looking to help develop the in-game and out of game community of Final Fantasy XI for all players. Thank you for your time, and I stand behind whatever decision you come to. --Kallo 16:32, 11 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment I appreciate you taking the time to come here and comment on this discussion, even after reading what you have said I still vote for deletion of this page. I understand what you are saying and we won't stop you from posting about your Website on your own User Pages but I simply do not think your website warrents its own page. I'm not looking at it in black and white, I have talked with my Fiance, Chrisjander (he is one of the two that think it should be kept) and I see where you both are coming from. But after more thought on my part, I still do not see any real benefit to the site for advertising and allowing you to have your own page... Yes you have a website that discusses FFXI... That seems like a Forum to me... Which brings me back the Linkshell Discussion in which we said that people can post things like that on their User Pages but keep it to there. Chris & Pink were both supporters of keeping Linkshells that were notable and I am not surprised they would want to keep this page following the same logic. You have great potential and are prolly a fun community but its your own community and your own website and I think it should stay on your User Pages. --Nynaeve 17:12, 11 September 2006 (EDT)

Delete: I agree completely with Enfield's viewpoint. --Aurikasura 18:19, 11 September 2006 (EDT)

Keep: I see this on par with the FFXI music and not necessarily Somepage or Alla, and definitely not the linkshells. Linkshell pages are essentially individual glorification of a group of people. They are not reference data for others to look at. Linkshell pages are akin to User pages, and we choose not to support such pages. Somepage and Allakhazam are reference sites like FFXIclopedia and, as odd as it may sound, may someday have a reference page in the wiki. I don't know, that's a hypothetical for another day, not for today. However, I enjoy the pages dealing with the FFXI music and it shows the branching out of FFXI into other mediums and inspired art. I find this podcast to be similar to that. I think they should be put into the same category that the FFXI music is placed and titled Category:FFXI Inspired Spinoffs or Category:Other FFXI Links or something like that. I also do not find this to be advertisement. This is entertainment and a spinoff from the game. It is not self-aggrandizement like the Linkshell pages. --Mierin 18:53, 11 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment: That's a great idea and a very good suggestion. We would be honored to be in a category like that --Aniero 21:51, 11 September 2006 (EDT)

Keep: I see nothing wrong with have an article about this. This is a unique situation. I have not heard this show before, but now I'll probably have a listen. As long as this article remains fact about the show, is maintained, and doesn't turn into some giant advertisement, I think the article should stay. Aniero, I do have to make one suggestion... continue to work on this article to change the minds of the people who suggest this article be deleted. Beef it up and show them this is a new type of article. As long as it remains fact, and not opinion, I see nothing wrong here. A podcast is not a resource for FFXI data. It's not a "competing" site. I think that's where the line is drawn against a page for Alla/Somepage/Mysterytour/FFXIOnline/whatever. I see those sites as competetors to FFXIclopedia. They provide the same services we provide here. A podcast does not. --Ganiman 07:59, 12 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment Okay, As Gani said as long as you don't branch into other areas, just stay on topic with your Podcast only... not your forums... I suppose it can stay... I'm tired of arguing a point that no one gets and I see what Gani is saying in the aspect of this is a special situation and if we make it that and if you don't advertise and keep it fact about the actual show and nothing else then I am starting to see not a problem with it... Begrudgingly but that is how I do things. The only thing I insist upong is allowing one of us Admins to move the Page to Limit Break Radio so I don't have to see uncapitalized letters in a title page which causes it to go against the grain of the sites formatting... --Nynaeve 08:26, 12 September 2006 (EDT)


 * Comment One other thing I'd like to see (this is just me being an admin) is a banner link to FFXIclopedia from your site. You can use the image located at: http://www.ffxiclopedia.org/ffxiclopedia_banner.jpg . You don't have to do that, I'm just throwing it out there. --Ganiman 10:43, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment (Way off topic) How about you be a guest Gani? ---Zero 14:35, 12 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Why don't you suggest me as one? <_< I've already been emailing Aniero, and we're going to set something up, but posting a suggestion on their forum wouldn't hurt. --Ganiman 08:03, 13 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Why not put in an App like the rest of us? --Zero 12:52, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment I'm still on the fence on this one. It did seem very much like an advertisement at first, which was rather off-putting. This is definitely an opportunity for a new type of category, but could lead to some conflicts of interest down the road, such as deciding if every FFXI-related podcast should have an entry, or just the ones that are "FFXIclopedia Approved"? --Tsakiki 13:23, 12 September 2006 (EDT)


 * I don't think it's a question of are they "FFXIclopedia Approved" but more of a "are they a competetor to FFXIclopedia?" It's my opinion that sites that provide the same service should not be listed here.  It could just be me... --Ganiman 08:03, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

KEEP I think _anything_ FFXI related is worth noting, The point of a wiki is to create a compendium of knowledge, and whatnot. Even if its just a brief blurb and a link to the other page. --Aelis 15:46, 12 September 2006 (EDT)

Comment: I moved the page... I just had enough uncapitalization... Thank you for removing the link to your forums... --Nynaeve 13:22, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Keep: I agree with Mierin on this one. Realize that the debate here is not on the substance of the article so much as the type of article. There are a few things related to this this are being brought up here - article types.
 * First is the linkshell debate - the biggest problem with LSs having their own pages is simply that anyone can create a LS. They come and go and are simply not meaningful to the community as a whole.  The best solution to this seems to be links off of userpages - which is where we are now.
 * Second are "competitive" websites. I view these as those that are primarily for imparting FFXI game information.  Now some of these are generally not "liked" (i.e.  Alla), some are liked/relied upon/affiliates (i.e. Atlas) and some are just out there (i.e. somepage).  As Mierin said, some day all of these may have pages under some webpage category.  This is not the time or place to debate it and I know there is a split on this.  It would also provbably entail something along the lines of the notability requirement that the wikipedia has - which we all know can be a PITA.  I think I would come out that notable (by some definition) websites would be entitiled to a short, factual page.  But this debate will happen when someone creates a page within this category.
 * Third are non-"competitive" websites. I view these as FFXI-related but are not providing game information.  Limit Break Radio is an example, and the Transworld project is probably another.  These also should belong to a category.  I think they are of interest to the community generally and allow the wiki to function as a complete source of information about not only the game, but about the community and community projects.
 * EDIT: As with the second category - some notability will be needed and I think we need to set forth some policy on what qualifies. It should be liberal, but should allow for the deletion of incomplete, non-updated, gerenally sloppy "projects".

--Gahoo 13:55, 14 September 2006 (EDT)

Delete: I think this should be deleted, but I also think there should be a page that is dedicated to links & short description about the site. It would countain links to a) fan sites (like this) b) offical sites (like their linkshell community site & of course main FFXI site). Possibly Site listing --Buzer 15:04, 15 September 2006 (EDT)

Result of AfD Discussion: Keep  --Mierin 16:35, 18 September 2006 (EDT)