Talk:Enmity

"Enmity is the rate at which hate is gained and dissipates."

I take strong issue with this statement; I have never seen anything from S-E which indicates they use the word "enmity" to mean "rate" of any sort.

Further more, "Enmity" should be the preferred term over "Hate"; it is, after all, the very (English) word which S-E choose to describe the various equipment.

"A tank wants as much hate as possible, while most other players want as little hate as possible"

I think that statement oversimplifies the role of tank and damage dealers with regard to enmity level.

The tank is there not just to create as much enmity as possible; rather, the tank's true purpose is to control enmity and thus the mob's attention. However, control really means control--not just "hit me only!"

For the most part, yes, a tank would want more enmity than the other players in party, but it's common in exp parties to desire a WS from a strong damage dealer to turn a mob so a thief can SATA (Fuidama) onto the tank and complete the weaponskill. That combination allows the DD to do more damage AND fix more enmity on the tank afterwards, while risking the damage dealer for only a brief periods of time.

"Spiked Hate" vs. "Gradual Hate"

This is a common way the players model the relative amount of enmity from different actions--and they tend to carry the distinctions too far.

It seems unlikely S-E would implement two different quantities of hate to track, since there is one action a monster has to make based on enmity--which player to attack. What players have observed is that some actions gain a lot of enmity (provoke, WS which breaks 1000 of damage, big cures), some moderate enmity (mid level cures, shield bash, Flash, Warcry), while others, minor amount of enmity (small cures, regular dagger strikes, Holy Circle).

Rather than trying to pigeon hole actions into "spike" and "gradual" hate, the simpler and clearer way to say is that every action results in some amount of enmity accumulation, and that amount depends on the type and effect/result of the actions.

Or, you can say "Every action results in a enmity spike, which is then added to the player's current net enmity quantity; the only difference is how large the spike is."

"It is possible for a tank to lose hate ... a damage dealer does an inordinate amount of damage, the monster will switch targets."

This author here is confusing "hate" for "mob's attack target". While it is possible for anyone to "lose hate" entirely (Dragoon superclimb, leaving zone, dying), what happens in the situation he described is merely someone else in party has gained greater amount of enmity than the tank.

There are ways to reduce net enmity one has, through decay and being receiver of negative actions from monsters, but that's not what the author has described.

BTW, who should be editing and fixing these things? I'm very new to the Wiki world...

You can feel free to do these edits. You sound like you have some pretty good information. Just be careful not to get too subjective on a "general" page such as this. But I think you shuld go ahead and change it up as you see fit - if anyone has objections then we can all duke it out here ^_^ You can also make your own guide if you really wanted to. --Rixie--

There are three things we're talking about here:

1. Enmity, the attribute affected by gear and merits.

2. How much the mob dislikes each player ("hate")

3. Who the mob dislikes most, and is therefore attacking
 * Changes in the mob's target are often described as "pulling hate" or "losing hate"

As you point out, there is ambiguity in the use of the word "hate". However, you propose to fix this by making the word "enmity" ambiguous between #1 and #2, which doesn't seem like an improvement. Surely you don't think that they are exactly the same thing?

My working assumption has been that -/+Enmity modifiers add or subtract that much hate from every action a player takes, which would certainly affect the rate at which hate is gained.

As for spike/gradual hate, I personally have no idea, but I have gotten the impression that the consensus among Paladins is that hate from Provoke decays much more rapidly than hate from other sources. The likeliness or unlikeliness of such a system doesn't seem like a strong argument for changing the page; SE have done plenty of unlikely things, and the formulas for, e.g. melee damage are quite arcane. But I would support qualifying the statement with something like "some believe".

I agree with the SATA observation, but that's an exception to the rule for advanced players. --Valyana 23:00, 27 April 2006 (PDT)

I don't mean switching to use of "enmity" instead of "hate" would resolve the ambiguity; rather, it would conform to S-E's terminology.

Equipments can have enmity adjustment, so what does they adjust? Why, they adjust enmity (per action is my guess as well)! So the quantity being altered is "enmity" instead of "hate", that's all. "Or, Enmity is the term, which is called Hate in slang."

I agree with you, Valyana, that I do not have a good enough argument for dismissing the spike/gradual hate model entirely, but I do not see a reason to mention in the first place, aside from tradition.

It happens that I have written an enmity guide on Allakhazam, but decided to remove it. (Curse you, IGE.) It's rather subjective--or at least very speculative--so I'm a bit uneasy about posting it here verbatim. For now, I think I'll just think about how I want to edit the page, but keeping things as neutral as possible. --Itazura 19:47, 4 May 2006 (PDT)

Revamped the entire article. Here's hoping no one would kill me for it. ^_^;

I'm still rather unfamilar with the expected sytle of prentation, much less all the fancy editing markup codes available. Itazura