Category talk:Bestiary/Archive 1

About the recent changes...
There have been some changes to the bestiary section recently. Flan to beastmen, wamoura to beastmen, and animated weapons to arcana. Does anyone have any proof of these? I have read that the blue magic spells Amplification (flan) and Cannonball (wamoura) are classified under beastmen, however I have yet to see any screenshots of this. Also, we are dealing with the monsters, not the blue magic spells. However, the expansion is new so these may be errors made by SE, similar to the Mamool Ja Infiltrator/Mamool Ja Philospher/Jurik mistakes in the Bhaflau Thickets. Simple ways of testing these are: Charm bats in Halvung and making them fight flan; use a Crab Familiar/Courier Carrie against a flan; use some lizard/plantoid against a wamoura; make a BST fight either (since they have no natural traits that intimidate beastmen); have a DRK fight an animated weapon.--Jopasopa 16:44, 12 July 2006 (EDT)

Not sure about the ToAU families, but Animated Weapons should belong in the Unclassified System. Maybe the mover mistook them for Evil Weapons. I don't think the Animated Weapons have the properties Arcana have. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 17:48, 12 July 2006 (EDT)

They said they're changing the help (description) for Amplification, Cannonball, Awful Eye, Disseverment, and Stinking Gas. Because of this I have changed flan, wamouracampa, and animated weapons back to their original spots. My reasoning for animated weapons is: Arcana are inanimate objects brought to life (by magic?), which is why they oppose undead (I guess) since undead are the same only they were once-living, rather than never living (I'm wondering if puppetmasters' automatons count as arcana). Now, animated weapons may seem they follow the rules of arcana, however, they are creatures native to Dynamis, a dreamland. Does a dream need to make sense? --Jopasopa 19:23, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

EDIT:They did not change Maelstrom's description according to the update details. According to this site, Maelstrom is classified as aquan. Does this mean kraken (sea monks) are aquans? I always thought they were, but I have not tested this or anything. --Jopasopa 19:27, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

Soulflayers
So anybody got any ideas where Soulflayers might fit in on the Bestiary? I was thinking Beastmen at first, but it seems unlikely that they'd lack a stronghold of their own (and based on the image in the update, they're likely located in Arrapago Reef). I'm thinking they might be Arcana, though they could just as easily be Demons or Aquans, or possibly Amorpha. --Quanta 07:35, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

Well, their drops are under beastman-made (I know, corse drops are too). I'm thinking they're gonna be chimeras in the story...You can think of them like bugbears and warmachines (assuming they are beastmen). They are both beastmen, but they are part of the Orcish Empire (but then again they ARE Orcs) and the Moblin's...army(?) respectfully. You could assume these guys are part of the Undead Swarm, or simply a very minor race of chimera beastmen. --Jopasopa 12:43, 25 July 2006 (EDT)


 * I'm thinking they're chimeras too. More appropriately, they're probably the male counterpart of the Lamia and Merrow. -- Quanta 05:10, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't think they (Animated Weapons) are Arcana. Are they intimidated by DRK's Arcana Killer. While thematically they may be like Arcana, technically, they may be Unclassified. I'm not sure Shadow Lord belongs under Demon either (I think that's the category listed on his page). He is a Demon in terms of the story, but the real question is whether he has Demon-category properties. All the bosses whose model is only used for 1 or 2 enemies (i.e. the Zilart, Shadow Lord, etc) probably fall into the Unclassified category.

As for Soulflayer, usually, Beastmen have a well-defined Job, especially compared to the regular animal enemies and they usually have 2 names, Race Some-kind-of-term-for-their-job. We need to get more Soulflayer names before we can make a judgment and we need to know do they have an easily defined Job?

Their home may be the Alzadaal Ruins since they are based on a oceanic creature (squid), just like we know the Merrow (fish-based) reside at sea. Heck, I wonder if they may be the puppetmasters behind the Lamia. Pulling strings and elusive leaders (i.e. Nashmeira II... unless she *is* the curtain) and apparent ploys (like the Astral Candescence, a "prized item" being put in the least guarded part of the city) are themes in ToAU. Somebody's being manipulated and it isn't clear of Aht Urhgan is manipulating the beastmen with this astral lure or if somebody is manipulating Aht Urhgan, getting them into a 2-front war and allowing their western capital to fall prey to sieges, and so on. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 19:54, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

Soulflayers are BLM. That is their only job I think...I still feel they are comparable to bugbears and warmachines. Heck, their names aren't even capitalized in the description of the items they drop, much like bugbears. --Jopasopa 20:29, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

After fighting them last night they seem very very similar to Corses. I don't see any reason why these would not be similarly classified as undead. --Gahoo 08:50, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

New TP Moves Limited to Near East
I've noticed some monsters have TP Moves listed that I haven't seen before (such as Doomed). If new TP moves were added and are found in one of the expansions' zones only, they should be labelled: CoP zones only, ToAU zones only, or CoP + ToAU zones only. This was done fairly well for new CoP moves, but I wonder if this level of attentiveness was not applied to some old mobs appearing in ToAU zones. I recommend someone very familiar with old mobs in ToAU go through the monster pages and add labels to TP moves where they are missing.

I also think such lists should be organized hierarchically, by when they were added to the game. So, a Special Attack list should be arranged like this:

Alphabetical list for Original/Zilart moves

Alphabetical list for CoP added moves (includes moves originating in CoP but also expanded to ToAU)

Alphebetical list for ToAU added moves

This is how the Giant Bat's Special Attacks appear on its page:
 * Ultrasonics: AoE Evasion Down
 * Subsonics: AoE Defense Down (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Blood Drain: Single target Drain attack. Based on TP.
 * Marrow Drain: Single target Aspir attack. Based on TP (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Supersonics: AoE Accuracy Down. (ToAU areas only)

I recommend:
 * Blood Drain: Single target Drain attack. Based on TP
 * Ultrasonics: AoE Evasion Down
 * Marrow Drain: Single target Aspir attack. Based on TP (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Subsonics: AoE Defense Down (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Supersonics: AoE Accuracy Down. (ToAU areas only)

Or: All Zones CoP & ToAU Zones Only ToAU Zones Only
 * Blood Drain: Single target Drain attack. Based on TP
 * Ultrasonics: AoE Evasion Down
 * Marrow Drain: Single target Aspir attack. Based on TP (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Subsonics: AoE Defense Down (CoP and ToAU areas only)
 * Supersonics: AoE Accuracy Down. (ToAU areas only)

--zoogelio-forgot-his-password 22:47, 10 September 2006 (EDT)

Hmmm, well based on all of the CoP abilities, all of them continue on in future installments of that monster-type. Exceptions to this is when they are limited to a different kind/palette swap of a monster-type (Example:Bhoots). So, we need a way of saying CoP and post-CoP only (I wouldn't say areas). Just a suggestion. --Jopasopa 16:04, 11 September 2006 (EDT)

Chart
Drawing on WS page. How about something like this? "Area" links would provide listing of areas in that expansion. --Gahoo 10:51, 19 September 2006 (EDT)

I would also point out that these moves are used in normal areas, but only by notorious/battlefield monsters. I know for a fact that Colo-colo from Wings of Fury uses these moves. --Chrisjander 11:17, 19 September 2006 (EDT)
 * Ta-da. --Gahoo 11:25, 19 September 2006 (EDT)
 * /clap ^^ --Chrisjander 13:01, 19 September 2006 (EDT)

"Machine" system?
Does anyone else feel there might be a "machine" system which includes automatons, the new Alzadaal monsters, and maybe biotechnological weapons? --Jopasopa 17:44, 19 December 2006 (EST)

Khimaira, Hydra, and Cerberus
I see Khimaira has been classified as Arcana and Hydra as Dragon. What proof is there for this? The family pages for Khimaira & Hydra should specify why they have this classification. Unlike other monsters, where their classification is fairly easy to determine by what intimidates them, it may be harder to determine it for HNMs. Were they tested using different BLU spells from their opposing beast system? And if Khimaira is an Arcana (despite looking like a Beast) and Hydra a Dragon (despite looking like a Lizard), then is Cerberus a Beast or a Demon? Soulflayer was determined to be a Demon, not a Beastman. So, basically, I'm asking for confirmation and for the confirmatory fact to be posted on the family page for Cererbi, Hydra, and Khimairas. I also recommend people check out the Salvage mechas and determine if they are Arcana or Unclassified. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 12:20, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Arcana Killer and Arcane Circle are reported to intimidate Khimaira left and right (so NIN/DRK is viable, with the exception that you can't stun much). See the Khimaira thread on BG. I have no idea about Cerberus. I think someone reported intimidating him via Beast Killer somehow...but this was months ago and I don't have any citation. Hydra, well I kinda made an ass out of myself and assumed that, but I think it's rather obvious. I mean, it's quite easy to pin a classification on monsters (Beasts=Landbound mammals, Lizards=Reptiles, Vermin=Non-crustaceous(sp) arthropods, Plantoids=Plants and Fungi, etc.). Maybe a DRG fighting the Hydra can help us out with the Hydra? Cerberus might be hard to ask for, but would any tank mind having Beast Killer somehow on while fighting him? >_> Also, eLeMeN has Cerberus classified under demons, which makes sense, but all other demons are humanoid in someway. --Jopasopa 13:08, 23 December 2006 (EST)

EDIT: The Alzadaal machines appear to detect magic (at least, people are reporting gears being aggressive to spellcasting). Although it's not conclusive evidence (since wamoura and soulflayers detect magic, too), but evidence appears to be pointing towards them being arcane. --Jopasopa 13:29, 23 December 2006 (EST)

Sounds good. Anything where its not obvious by appearance should have a little description on its category page. Khimaira bears more than a passing resemblance to Behemoth and looks by all accounts like an animal. Its page should say Arcana and make note of why it is an arcana despite its appearance because someone may come along later on and look at the picture and say "Hey, that's a beast, not an arcana". And if Hydra isn't confirmed as a Dragon or Cerberus as whatever it is, they should have those triangle ! "verification needed" tags next to the Category: ___. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 18:35, 23 December 2006 (EST)

I'm not exactly sure if this is verification, but I fought Cerberus twice in the October-November 2006 timeframe, and I intimidated him as PLD/NIN with Koenig Shield equipped as my only "Killer effect" gear. Here is a screenie: http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e58/SirGemini/CerberusIntim.jpg He is definitely in the Beasts system, or was at that time. --Bregor of Bahamut 16:16, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Safe to assume he still is. Thank you very much! ^^ --Jopasopa 16:50, 16 January 2007 (EST)

Agreed. That settles it, the Hound of Halvung is a Beast. --zoogelio-forgot-his-password 23:47, 16 January 2007 (EST)

"Newbie" monsters
Aren't the "newbie monsters" (Wild Rabbit / Tunnel Worm / Huge Hornet / Bumblebee / Tiny Mandragora) below level 1 (.5?)? How else would they be Decent Challenge to someone that is Lv1? It would also explain why the worms don't have any magic among other things. --Jopasopa 22:34, 21 January 2007 (EST)

Unless someone changed it, I had them listed as level 0 (i.e. one level less than starting characters). Decent challenge, 50 xp each. It sounds like the perfect solution (since I didn't want to deal with fractions of levels). --Chrisjander 22:53, 21 January 2007 (EST)

0 sounds good. --Jopasopa 16:41, 22 January 2007 (EST)